Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:06:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #91 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,300 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: zen/ch'an (timdnml@comcast.net) 2. Re: Interesting article (J F) 3. rope work (Jye nigma) 4. Christian Martial Artist (Robert Wood) 5. RE: Re: Interesting article (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 6. RE: Interesting article (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 7. RE: Re: zen/ch'an (michael tomlinson) 8. RE: Re: Interesting article (Dennis Overall) 9. Re: Christian Martial Artist (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: timdnml@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 01:21:01 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: zen/ch'an Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Like my daddy used to say, "That was Zen, this is Tao." T-Bone --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:42:31 -0700 (PDT) From: J F To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Interesting article Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net J F wrote: Jye, Any way to get this to the Rev Hird? Reverend Hird, I respectfully disagree with the "big picture" point you try to make in this dissertation. I am a Believer (Christian) and I hold a 1st Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. My native Korean instructors are Christians and we openly discuss our praise and prayer requests with each other. We don't practice meditation, however the practice of "moving meditation" during poomse is just that,...emptying your mind to strengthen it and your body. My meditation is upon God's Word,...although I do "meditate" as a visualization technique before a rank test or a demonstration. At the risk of sounding vindictive, the grand sport of golf was "invented" by gentlemen who were enjoying drinks in a pub in Scotland. Does that make golf an evil practice? Your apparent position of seperatism troubles me. What about the Great Commission in the Bible? Does it say, reach all nations with the Truth (the Gospel of Jesus Christ), just as long as they are in our inner circle? Yin/Yang,...did God not create the day and night and proclaim it good? Again, forgive me,...but I cannot sit here after an evening with my church youth group encouraging them to be a Daniel (Old Testament) and then listen to you speak this seperatist message. You either have too much time on your hands or a hidden agenda. You know that the baseball players of yesteryear weren't athletes, they were, (OK some were),...smokers and drinkers? Can I look forward to a sterile (albeit well-documented) writing denouncing baseball and all its unChrist-like participants? Jesus hung out with lepers and prostitutes (sinners, the people He came to save),...for a reason. Your "Christian School Board" really angers me,...and I feel it is righteous anger. I love you as a brother in Christ, but am embarassed by your writing. I suggest you read the New Testament and get your head around the New Covenant God has made with His children. I have crossed the line, I understand,...again, I ask for your forgiveness. I should probably wait until tomorrow to send this, and sleep on it, but I can't wait. I get so tired of hearing secular vs. Christian. God has called us to be disciples of all nations. Everything we do should reflect our worship of God. I don't even want to know your view of contemporary Christian music. I have strayed from the topic of KMA, which is my earthly passion (besides my family). Again, please forgive me. In His grip, Jeff Finley South Carolina, USA Jeff --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 20:13:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] rope work Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is really tactics for the weight chain, but what do you all think of the grappling work or the video in general. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHNpsEM58mM&feature=related Jye --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Robert Wood To: Dojang Digest Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 09:08:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Christian Martial Artist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As an ordained minister of the Church of God Reformation Moment (HQ, Anderson IN.) and a 1st Dan in KMA I believe that the martial arts are an empty cup that you fill. I have read “Zen In The Martial Arts” by Joe Hyams and found that the “Zen mind” to be the point at which you are in the moment. In others words, nothing (ie fear, doubt, or confusion) clouds your ability to carry out the task at hand. Most athletes would say that they are “in the zone”. Now please understand that I am NOT attempting to get “preachy”, however if there are other Christian Martial Artists on the DD I’d like to share some Scripture with them that might help them discuss their martial arts training with those who may not understand the need/desire to train. Genesis 14: 14 – 16 Men trained for war; Genesis 32 Jacob prepared for was with his brother Esau; Deuteronomy 20 God leads His warriors; II Samuel 23: 8 – 39 lists David’s mighty men of battle; Nehemiah 4 Those rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem were armed and ready to defend their families, homes, and city; Exodus 22: 2 – 3 Self-defense in times of crime and terrorism; Like 22: 36 – 38 the Apostles were armed for self-defense; I Timothy 4: 7 – 8 Physical training is of some value. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, please email off-list at robwood@live.com. iHs, Rob Wood Knowing is not enough, you must apply...Willing is not enough, you must do. -- Bruce LeeI am careful not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business -- Michael J. Fox _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_042008 --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Interesting article Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:02:19 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I really liked your what you had to say. For too long some people have had a them and us mentality. As we look back at the legacy that Martin Luther King left behind, consider that when this very Christian minister MEDITATED in his study on the dilemma of justice vs. non-violence this is what happened. He actually got his inspiration from a Hindu sage! Strange that. Of course what I am saying is that we all learn and certainly respect each other Peter -----Original Message----- From: J F [mailto:tuffgong5150@yahoo.com] Sent: 07 April 2008 13:43 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Interesting article J F wrote: Jye, Any way to get this to the Rev Hird? Reverend Hird, I respectfully disagree with the "big picture" point you try to make in this dissertation. I am a Believer (Christian) and I hold a 1st Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. My native Korean instructors are Christians and we openly discuss our praise and prayer requests with each other. We don't practice meditation, however the practice of "moving meditation" during poomse is just that,...emptying your mind to strengthen it and your body. My meditation is upon God's Word,...although I do "meditate" as a visualization technique before a rank test or a demonstration. At the risk of sounding vindictive, the grand sport of golf was "invented" by gentlemen who were enjoying drinks in a pub in Scotland. Does that make golf an evil practice? Your apparent position of seperatism troubles me. What about the Great Commission in the Bible? Does it say, reach all nations with the Truth (the Gospel of Jesus Christ), just as long as they are in our inner circle? Yin/Yang,...did God not create the day and night and proclaim it good? Again, forgive me,...but I cannot sit here after an evening with my church youth group encouraging them to be a Daniel (Old Testament) and then listen to you speak this seperatist message. You either have too much time on your hands or a hidden agenda. You know that the baseball players of yesteryear weren't athletes, they were, (OK some were),...smokers and drinkers? Can I look forward to a sterile (albeit well-documented) writing denouncing baseball and all its unChrist-like participants? Jesus hung out with lepers and prostitutes (sinners, the people He came to save),...for a reason. Your "Christian School Board" really angers me,...and I feel it is righteous anger. I love you as a brother in Christ, but am embarassed by your writing. I suggest you read the New Testament and get your head around the New Covenant God has made with His children. I have crossed the line, I understand,...again, I ask for your forgiveness. I should probably wait until tomorrow to send this, and sleep on it, but I can't wait. I get so tired of hearing secular vs. Christian. God has called us to be disciples of all nations. Everything we do should reflect our worship of God. I don't even want to know your view of contemporary Christian music. I have strayed from the topic of KMA, which is my earthly passion (besides my family). Again, please forgive me. In His grip, Jeff Finley South Carolina, USA Jeff --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety Visit the London Fire Brigade Shop at www.lfbshop.co.uk This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Interesting article Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:18:06 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jye what parts did you agree with? Tell me what you think of this; "We must take time to prepare our minds for spiritual things. The development of spiritual capacity does not come with the conferral of authority. There must be desire, effort, and personal preparation. This requires, of course, as you already know, fasting, prayer, searching the scriptures, experience, meditation, and a hungering and thirsting after the righteous life" (The Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, p. 36). -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: 05 April 2008 06:33 To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com; the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Interesting article Check out this TKD article I ran across. I agree with some stuff, some other stuff I think the author was reaching for, and then some other stuff I didn't know about....let me know your thoughts. Jye Taekwondo & the Martial Arts: Mere Exercise or Trojan Horse? (An article for the February 2,000 Anglicans for Renewal Magazine) I was personally involved in Martial Arts, Karate in particular, for a number of years between the period of 1971 to 1991. My enthusiasm for martial arts even led me to successfully recruit other Christians to join me. Through the prayer ministry of the group Wholeness Through Christ, I chose to renounce my previous involvement in the martial arts. Previously, I was opposed to some of my friends dabbling in community centre yoga, but had rationalized my involvement in the martial arts as something innocuous. In the spring of 1999, my sons discussed with me the expectation that they would take part in Taekwondo as part of their Christian school gym class. In discussing our concerns with their principal, it was agreed that my sons would be exempted from this expectation. It was also agreed that I would do some research regarding our concerns about Taekwondo, and present my findings in a paper to the principal and the school board. As a renewal-oriented Anglican, I believe that it is vital that the charismatic gift of discernment (1 Corinthians 12:10) not be neglected in this neo-gnostic, confused age. As part of the discernment process, I carefully researched dozens of pro-martial arts books, with a special emphasis on taekwondo books. I also consulted extensively with a good number of taekwondo and Martial Arts instructors from North America and around the world. My research led me to believe that taekwondo and the Martial Arts (MA) are far more than just physical gym exercises. Rather Taekwondo and MA are Zen(1) Buddhist meditational technique designed to bring a person into the experience of satori or Buddhist enlightenment. As Buddhism essentially is reformed Hinduism, so too the Martial Arts are essentially Martial Yoga. Few westerners have enough experience with Zen Buddhism to initially notice the hidden religious nature of martial arts. Chuck Norris, famous for his role as Walker on the TV show Texas Ranger, holds unreservedly that 'the ancient system of Zen (is) the core philosophy behind the martial arts.'(2) It is no coincidence that the occult circular symbol of Ying-Yang constantly appears on even many innocuous-looking Taekwondo WEBsites and brochures.(3) One of the goals of Taekwondo and other martial arts is to enter a zazen meditational state so that 'the everyday experience of the dualism of subject and object vanishes.'(4) In the Encyclopedia of New Age Beliefs (5)John Ankerberg and John Weldon state that "Because most (martial arts) methods incorporate eastern teaching and techniques, the martial arts are easy doorways into Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and other non-Christian religions." They went on to comment that "Traditionally, martial arts are forms of spiritual education that function as means towards self-realization or self-enlightenment. It is true that the spiritual dimension of martial arts can be downplayed or ignored, but that is not consistent with their ultimate purpose historically."(6) Taekwondo and other martial arts can be traced to a 6th century Buddhist monk Bodhidharma who travelled from India to China and established Zen Buddhism at the Shaolin temple of Ko San So Rim. There he taught them both sitting meditation and the martial arts (moving meditation) to enable his disciples to free themselves from all conscious control in order to attain enlightenment. (7) Since Taekwondo's Olympic debut in 1988, its popularity has spread like wildfire across the world.(8) Taekwondo means ' Hand (Tae) and Foot (kwon) Way (do). According to the Official WTF Taekwondo book, Taekwondo 'is now the national sport of Korea.'(9) Eddie Ferrie holds that 'every child in (Korean) school is compelled to practise Taekwondo...' (10) David Mitchell notes that Taekwondo 'is taught to all members of the Korean armed forces'. (11) It is estimated that 20 -30 million people worldwide now have been initiated into Taekwondo. (12) One of the major concerns by Christian researchers is the sitting meditation commonly done in Taekwondo and most Martial Arts. The Fighting Back Taekwondo book describes the Chung Shin Tomil or sitting meditation as 'another essential part of your taekwondo training'. (13) "Before and after any taekwondo class, the students meditate...first, you may be asked to clear your mind of all thought and to relax completely...The 2nd method of meditation is related to visualization."(14) Mitchell claims that '...the empty mind (is) needed to master taekwondo.' (15) Key to both Buddhist and Hindu occult meditation is manipulation of one's breathing, which is described as Hohup chojul and Jiptung (synchronized breathing) in Taekwondo. In contrast, biblical meditation is meditating on God's written Word the Bible, rather than meditating on the empty mind by using occult breathing and visualization techniques. Another area of concern relates to the ritual forms or poomse used in Taekwondo. The karate equivalent to the poomse is the kata patterns. As the Taekwondo author and instructor Eddie Ferrie puts it, "Many of the patterns of taekwondo are rooted in semi-mystical Taoist philosophy and their deeper meaning is said to be far more important than the mere performance of a gymnastics series of exercises. This is not immediately obvious, either when performing or watching the poomse being performed..." (16) The eight Taegeuk poomses performed in taekwondo are derived from the eight triagrams of the occult I'Ching. (17) Richard Chun holds that 'the forms of Taekwondo...are more than physical exercises: they are vehicles for active meditation.' (18) One of the most questionable poomse patterns is the Ilyo or Ilyeo poomse. Ferrie teaches that the "Ilyo is a pattern which has a spiritual orientation containing 24 movements. The title of the pattern refers to the development of a state of spiritual enlightenment which is one of the ultimate aims of the disciple of taekwondo. The student who has attained Ilyo is capable of completely spontaneous reaction without any interference from the conscious mind." (19) I was surprised to find out that the Ilyo poomse is done in the shape of an actual swastika. Hitler stole this ancient occult symbol from the Buddhists and Hindus who had used it for centuries as a symbol of monism (20) (all is one, and all is God). The Taekwondo Textbook teaches that 'The line of poomse symbolizes the Buddhist mark (swastika) in commemoration of Saint Wonho (or Won Hyo), which means a state of perfect selflessness in Buddhism where origin, substance, and service come into congruity.' (21) The Buddhist swastika in Taekwondo 'teaches that a point, a line, or a circle ends up after all in one. Therefore the poomse Ilyeo represents the harmonization of spirit and body which is the essence of martial arts.' (22) The swastika in Taekwondo has the occult (i.e. Hidden) purpose of teaching the higher-level students that all is one and all is God. In conclusion, my research and personal experience has led me to the conviction that Taekwondo and the Martial Arts are not merely physical exercise, but in fact are Zen Buddhist meditational practices, both in their sitting and moving forms. Taekwondo and MA are a Trojan Horse in the House of the Lord, eroding the spiritual barriers between Zen Buddhism and the Christian Gospel, and potentially leading vulnerable children and teens into the early stages of eastern occultism. As a result of this research, our Christian School Board decided to no longer offer Taekwondo or other Martial Arts. The good news about religious syncretism is that it is never too late to repent and start afresh, serving one Master and one Master alone, Jesus Christ our Lord (Matthew 6:24) The Reverend Ed Hird Rector, St. Simon's Anglican Church North Vancouver, BC ARM Canada Missioner Footnotes: Nathan Johnson, Zen Shaolin Karate, "Ch'an (zen) monks of the Shaolin Temple" (Ch'an comes from an Indian word dhyana meaning meditation.) Chuck Norris, The Secret Power Within: Zen Solutions to Real Problems, Top Kick Productions, 1996, inside cover; '...Zen is integral to the Oriental martial arts...(p. 23)' Taekwondo Textbook, Oh Sung Publishing Company, Kukkiwon Edition, p. 235; The Complete Idiot's Guide To Taekwondo, Karen Eden & Keith Yates, Alpha Books, New York, 1998, p. 22 Encyclopedia Brittanica, 15th Edition, 'Martial Arts', p. 886 John Ankerberg & John Weldon, Encyclopedia of New Age Beliefs, Harvest House, 1996, Oregon, p. 351 Ankerberg and Weldon, Op. Cit., p. 356 Richard Chun, Tae Kwon Do: The Korean Martial Art, Toronto, 1976, p. 2 Fighting Back: Taekwondo for Women, YH Park Publications, 1993, p. 8 David Mitchell, Official WTF Taekwondo, Antler Books, London, 1986, back cover Eddie Ferrie, , Taekwondo: Traditional Art and Modern Sport, The Crowford Press, UK, 1989, p. 101 Mitchell, Op. Cit., p. 9 J.S. Eldon, Essential Taekwondo Patterns, Paul Crompton Ltd, London, 1994, p. 5; The Complete Idiot's Guide To Taekwondo, Op. Cit., p. 18 Fighting Back, Op. Cit., p. 150 Op. Cit., p. 150 Mitchell, Op. Cit., p. 12 Ferrie, Op. Cit., p. 99 Ferrie, Op. Cit., p. 99, p. 100 Chun, Op. Cit., p. 34 Ferrie, Op. Cit., p. 100 Taekwondo Textbook, Op. Cit., p. 235, p. 506 Taekwondo Textbook, Op. Cit., p. 506 "Won Hyo is a 28 movement form or poomse which is named after the 7th century monk who purportedly introduced Zen Buddhism to Korea. (Ferrie, p. 101)" Op. Cit., p. 506 --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety Visit the London Fire Brigade Shop at www.lfbshop.co.uk This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: michael tomlinson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: zen/ch'an Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:42:39 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net LOL....hey that was good!!! Michael Tomlinson> From: timdnml@comcast.net> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 01:21:01 +0000> Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: zen/ch'an> > Like my daddy used to say, "That was Zen, this is Tao."> > T-Bone> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Pack up or back up–use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh _skydrive_packup_042008 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Dennis Overall To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Interesting article Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 12:20:31 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you so much Jeff Finley for writing your thoughts on Christians and martial arts. I too am a Christian martial artist. My school is a Christian martial arts school and we pray before each class and testing. We all know that martial arts has eastern philosophy roots. I do not focus on eastern gods or deities when I meditate or train. I always ask our Lords blessing. One of the tournaments that my students attend is presented by a group of christian masters. We know that a martial arts master is a servant to the people. We also know that we follow only one true Master. I make that very clear to the students that I serve. Dennis Overall Loogootee Martial Arts A Christian Martial Arts School _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_042008 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:41:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Christian Martial Artist To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree that the physical portion of MA aren't against God. But at higher levels when you start learning to use occult methods envoking/invoking spirits, trying to contact spirits/ancestors for power, knowledge, guidance, etc that's where the problem is for christians. For example, meditation as in focusing on something isn't against God, because we know there are several passages in the Bible where people meditate on the Word or Law of God. But meditation where you empty your self causing you to lower your guards leave you open to spirits. That is against God. So all in all, there are many things that christians should know about and try to avoid within the MA. whether it's a whole concept or fragments. I have to say in TKD there aren't as many things like you'd find in kung fu or ninjutsu, but there are somethings such as the taoist ying and yang philosophy (um yang in korean?) Jye Jye Robert Wood wrote: As an ordained minister of the Church of God Reformation Moment (HQ, Anderson IN.) and a 1st Dan in KMA I believe that the martial arts are an empty cup that you fill. I have read “Zen In The Martial Arts” by Joe Hyams and found that the “Zen mind” to be the point at which you are in the moment. In others words, nothing (ie fear, doubt, or confusion) clouds your ability to carry out the task at hand. --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest