Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 02:48:21 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #92 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,300 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Christian Martial Artist (daomyer@aol.com) 2. Re: Christian martial artists (Kevin Janisse) 3. please don't quote long email msgs (Ray) 4. RE: Christian Martial Artist (Jeff Yeagley) 5. Jye's Comments on "Meditation" (firstpe315@aol.com) 6. Zen Mind (Robert Wood) 7. "occult" (Jerry) 8. Master Dan Christians in the Martial Arts (dan scholten) 9. Re: Zen Mind (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Re: Interesting article (Jye nigma) 11. Re: weight chain (Beungood8@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Christian Martial Artist Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:32:05 -0400 From: daomyer@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Its really time to get back to?hitting stuff?? ; ) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 12:49:39 -0700 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Christian martial artists Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Jeff, Nice response, no need to apologize though. I have heard many people, so called experts and others who just share their opinion (if there is a difference), slide eastern religion into the martial arts. If you go way back to the beginning, the first documented martial art technique was performed by Cain when he slew able and since Cain was essentially on the run since the murder, he must of picked up some fighting skills. With this in mind, we could draw a hypothesis that the first martial art came from Cain. Since that time many pagan religions were created which drew in fighting skills needed to persuade others to join them or protect their “way”. I have always taught that martial arts are not evil or derived from the occult. It is the person that is evil not the tool. A gun has never pointed itself at a person and fired (high tech weapons programmed by man excluded). There is no doubt that there is the occult mixed into some of the arts that are taught today but to presume that a person is practicing the occult because he is learning an art that has some occult influence is rather arrogant. Even though the days of the week are pagan names of polytheistic god worship I don’t consider myself a pagan because I tell someone “let’s have lunch on Thursday” (some humor here….lol) There are still groups of martial artists that try to tap into the occult to improve there effectiveness. I have known some of them and warned them against continuing the practice. These same people end up mentally disturbed, physically diseased, alone, and some committing suicide. These type of groups give the MA a real bad reputation. As a Christian martial artist I consider myself fully protected against these type of influences and use the martial arts as an outreach ministry. I do not believe in any way that conditioning ones body to become a good fighter will erode my Christian belief or position in Christ Jesus. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.8/1363 - Release Date: 4/7/2008 8:56 AM --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 13:16:57 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] please don't quote long email msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To all... Please remember to trim your posts? What does that mean? There is no need to send an entire email, esp a very long one, back when you reply to an email that comes from the list. So please only quote the portion to which you are commenting about, or just say something like "Regarding the post on Christians in the martial arts...". Something along those lines. When someone quotes a quote of a long quoted email the reply email gets VERY long. Thanks. Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:17:32 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Christian Martial Artist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wholeheartedly concur with what these other Christian martial artists have said. Our dojang sounds similar in how we do things to that of Mr. Overall's. I tell people that in the martial arts, the term master is used with the same meaning as master electrician, master chess player, etc. Used correctly, I believe the term should denote knowledge and experience, not worship or idolatry. Onward Christian soldiers... Jeff Yeagley Academy of Fighting Arts A Christian Martial Arts School --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:57:32 -0400 From: firstpe315@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Jye's Comments on "Meditation" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye - I respect you much and enjoy your posts.? But, I do disagree with your concerns over meditation. Just my .02c on this being a Christian and a life-long MAtist... It is a myth for peopel to believe that Christians can be possessed by spirits.? Once you are a believer you are already indwelt with the Holy Spirit.? You cannot will that away through meditation (turning your back on God in willfull disobedience will help however).? So, simply put, the idea that you leave yourself open to evil spirits by meditation is not biblical.? A spirit cannot dwell where God already is. Emptying your mind is best thought of as just an empty mind...to quote an old story I love of the Tea Master and the Ronin..."you neither seek life or fear death"...that is Mushin...aka...No Mind? (I wish the Koreans had neat little martial arts words like that). Anyway...as I said, my .02c --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Robert Wood To: Dojang Digest Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 16:06:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Zen Mind Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, “But meditation where you empty your self causing you to lower your guards leave you open to spirits. That is against God. So all in all, there are many things that christians should know about and try to avoid within the MA.” The Zen mind I was speaking comes from knowing yourself and your art that you are not weighted by extraneous thought (I’m scare, can I do this, will I survive...? etc). I am talking about being there in the moment. Just like the baseball player is focused in the in-coming baseball, not his grip on the bat, the placement of his feet, or the speed of the ball. Just focus and contact. The Zen mind is were the MA does not need to shuffle through his techniques to find the right one for the situation. Due to the countless hours devoted to the mastery of the art, the MA need not think of the technique it is just there. I think Mr. Tomlinson related being accosted at a fast food joint in the past and was surprise be the fact there was no conscience thought involved with defending himself. It “flowed” out of training/muscle memory into the situation. That is Zen mid. iHs, Rob Wood Knowing is not enough, you must apply...Willing is not enough, you must do. -- Bruce LeeI am careful not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business -- Michael J. Fox _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_ Refresh_messenger_video_042008 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:46:51 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jerry Subject: [The_Dojang] "occult" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To a lot of my pagan friends (and I'm not Pagan) "occult methods envoking/invoking spirits, trying to contact spirits/ancestors for power, knowledge, guidance, etc that's where the problem " sure sounds a lot like Christianity to them....(i.e. the Pope, Saints, etc...) it's all in the eye of the beholder..... from my perspective, if someone wants to have a dojang that includes Christianity and rejects the eastern philosophical concepts that come along with the Eastern Martial Arts, that's fine with me, I just don't need to attend if I choose not to....if I am Jewish, for instance, and the head of the dojang decides to recite a Hebrew prayer before each class and I like that, I'm free to join in ...or not....etc etc etc.... ...and if there's a dojang that focuses on the physical as well as allowing each person to meditate in their own way, that's fine to, I can choose to attend or not To each their own. -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin It's also true that those who would give up privacy for security are likely to end up with neither. It's not the years in your life that count, but the life in your years" "Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional" "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement and success have no meaning." - Benjamin Franklin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 14:01:33 -0800 From: dan scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan Christians in the Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It was nice to hear for a change a couple people say they are serious Martial Arts practitioners and Christians at the same time. This issue of breathing and meditation I have brought up once before and typical comments are that all martial arts training has no basis in Christian belief. I have practiced Chi Gong and many other types of self healing arts and I can speak with authority that they do work however as a Christian I was taught to always look for the source of power, where do things actually come from. In the Martial arts you always go back in history 2,000 then 4,000 then 6,000 then eventually 8,000 years or more and there are as many opinions on subject as a certain part of out body mention quite often. If we go back to the beginning, Creation and Genesis, look how life begins, with the breath of God breathed in us. As you study further you will consider that in Nature all the processes even down to an atomic level and work back up from their were created by a divine or intelligent being. Hence there is nothing, no art, no material or thought that is original but all is a carbon copy of the original creation. In ancient times a few men were trusted with all this knowledge and even had this in written form but as usual power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This knowledge was taken away and parts of it has resurfaced renamed and repackaged as man and the other guy I won't mention like to do. Getting back on point, you are what you eat and you are what you think. Every nutritionist and mental health official will agree including God him self in writing. I believe that all human physical movements and breathing are divine in nature and created for our good. So when breathing you can breath God in and move with his energy when training. This energy exists and benefits both believer and non believer to a point. There have been some really good scientific studies to document right down to a cellular level the effects of these methods such as Chi Gong. However when you get that far you are faced with the old what came first the chicken or the egg. I prefer to believe I was created and give credit where credit is due and I see the difference in application. I have had some very devout Christians claim that I am manipulating the Holy Spirit? First how can any man manipulate God. There are currently some people running around tapping into some things they do not fully understand related to pressure points, knock outs and no touch knock outs that are damaging some people even them selves many years latter after application. This is not good. In the end it is for each person to decide. I believe and teach my students that the most important thing you can get from Martial Arts Training is to discover your own personal divine nature and self worth. From this you can channel your efforts for your own good and that of others to be a happy and healthy person best you can. It was real fun for me to be at the IR seminar and see so many even Korean Master's and Grand Masters publicly on their uniforms and in speaking taking a stand as Christians and promoting Christian beliefs. This to me seemed to be a real change since the last 20 years. I appreciate the DD allowing discussions openly like this, however religion like politics can get messy. I would recommend the WCTF World Christian Tae Kwon Do Federation link for those of you that want to have a venue strictly for Christian TKD and MA Here is a link http://www.wctf.net/ At the IR seminar religion and many other topics were discussed one on one and in small groups from completely different back grounds and no body go upset taking a higher perspective that we were all TKD brothers working towards a positive goal. I hope that keeps up. Master Dan --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:07:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Zen Mind To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes I know what you are talking about, that is concentrating solely on something. Nothing wrong with that for a christian because we are instructed to do that on the Bible. But there is another type of meditation where one empties themself into an empty shell, that's what I'm talking about. It may not be found in all martial arts, thankfully for me TKD wasn't full of that stuff but the other art(s) I studied were. Jye Robert Wood wrote: Jye, “But meditation where you empty your self causing you to lower your guards leave you open to spirits. That is against God. So all in all, there are many things that christians should know about and try to avoid within the MA.” The Zen mind I was speaking comes from knowing yourself and your art that you are not weighted by extraneous thought (I’m scare, can I do this, will I survive...? etc). I am talking about being there in the moment. Just like the baseball player is focused in the in-coming baseball, not his grip on the bat, the placement of his feet, or the speed of the ball. Just focus and contact. The Zen mind is were the MA does not need to shuffle through his techniques to find the right one for the situation. Due to the countless hours devoted to the mastery of the art, the MA need not think of the technique it is just there. I think Mr. Tomlinson related being accosted at a fast food joint in the past and was surprise be the fact there was no conscience thought involved with defending himself. It “flowed” out of training/muscle memory into the situation. That is Zen mid. iHs, Rob Wood Knowing is not enough, you must apply...Willing is not enough, you must do. -- Bruce LeeI am careful not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business -- Michael J. Fox _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_ Refresh_messenger_video_042008 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 15:04:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Interesting article To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hi J F, I don't know Reverd Hird. I will say this though. There are some people who hear a little something of the martial arts and condem the whole thing. Then you have people who take a passage like turn the other cheek and make a religion out of that. But I do know that in my walk with/to Christ and as a martial artist, I crossed the line with some techniques and other things I was taught in the martial arts and the reason was because I didn't know and because I was understudied (if that's a word) in the Bible. But even though those things God hates I am not held accountable for because I truly didn't know. I started studying the occult, secret societies, satanist, etc etc and found that much of the stuff I was practicing was either in part or in whole material from the occult. Now one could make the arguement well pagans pray so should we not pray? but that's a silly point. It's not necessarily the action it's the intent behind the action- much like if you kill someone with a martial art technique if it was intentional or accident makes all the difference in the world. As far as yinand yang sure God created dark and light, but in the philosophy of the yin and yang good and evil must coexist for balance, but does the Bible teach that good and evil will always co-exist or will evil be erradicated eventually? I think to condemn a whole activity blindly is irresponsible and lazy at best, but I do think no matter what we as believers or non-believers as a whole should always try to know as much about what we're getting into as possible for multiple reasons. check out this site: http://www.iep.utm.edu/y/yinyang.htm Jye J F wrote: J F wrote: Jye, Any way to get this to the Rev Hird? --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 19:23:26 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: weight chain Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is really tactics for the weight chain, but what do you all think of the grappling work or the video in general. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHNpsEM58mM&feature=related Jye I liked it similar to rope or belt techniques. Is that girl single? **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides. (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest