Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:17:42 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #104 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,300 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: 6yr old black belt? (Master Aaron Locke) 2. RE: Question for Dojang Owners (J R Hilland) 3. Master Dan change in sparring (dan scholten) 4. Master Dan Two Tae Kwon Do? Two Styles and Who changed. (dan scholten) 5. Re: 6yr old black belt? (kriskohn@aol.com) 6. Re: 6yr old black belt? (Ray) 7. Re: Master Dan change in sparring (Ray) 8. RE: 6yr old black belt? (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 9. TKD clips (Jye nigma) 10. Sport Taekwondo Dominates (The_Dojang) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Master Aaron Locke" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:29:04 +0000 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a few comments and I will just say it, this is BS. If this is true, then I personally would have 0% respect for this master. I admittedly have strong opinions about children training in the martial arts, and very very strong opinions regarding children testing for black belt. Just by way of explanation, at my school, I do not take students under the age of 6 and those 6-7 yr olds have a different curriculum than older students, one that is more in keeping with their age and maturity. No one at my school gets a black belt before the age of 13, period. So a 6-yr-old black belt is highly offensive to me. Here is the main reason why. If you do the math, using the standard time periods for Dan level promotion, this child will be a 2nd Dan at age 8, a 3rd Dan at age 11, a 4th Dan at age 15, a 5th Dan at age 20, a 6th Dan at age 26, a 7th Dan at age 31, an 8th Dan at age 39 and a 9th Dan at age 48. Most of use are probably in the range of 3rd through 6-7th Dan and I assume we are all adults who are committed to the martial arts and probably own schools or have clubs. I am 29 and about to test for 5th Dan in TSD in a few months. I have been training for 19 yrs and feel that promotion to that rank is too soon given my age and experience. I can hardly fathom a child getting a 5th Dan at age 20, two full years before he would be graduating college. That is absolutely ridiculous. Think about it, a 20-something strutting around at tournaments with so many tips on his belt that you can hardly count them. I would hope that training would give him a sense of maturity, but who can say that would be the case? Nothing can be gained by promotion kids that early. All that does is cause the belt itself to be devalued. Adults who are working incredibly hard for all those years see a 6 yr old black belt running around playing tag w/ other kids, or using his coveted black belt as a jump rope (I have seen that one w/ my own eyes more than once). Basically these kids are just acting like kids, but they shouldn't be wearing black belts while they do it. That type of behavior is to be expected from a child of that age, but what it does is take away the meaning behind that belt and that rank from the adults who are striving to achieve it. It is great that Master Liciaga has so many people promoting to black belt, but there absolutely should be age restrictions on these promotions. There is a certain level of responsibility that comes with promotion to black belt, especially the higher levels of black belt, and promoting a 6-yr-old child to that rank is highly offensive to me. Master Aaron Locke Locke's Karate Academy 17007 Bel-Ray Blvd. Belton, Missouri 64012 (816) 322-5557 www.kansascity@pakskarate.com -----Original Message----- From: Samurai Latino [mailto:samurai_latino@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:40 AM To: 'MA Business Newsgroup' Subject: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? Hello Everyone, Just read the article below. There is a statement that reads "the youngest at age 6, the eldest at 41". So my question is... was this child between the ages of 3 to 4 yrs old when he or she started? I believe we have had this subject before but it was about a reasonable age to be elegible to test for black belt. I'm just curious. Any comments? "Rafael" Choson Martial Arts Google News Alert for: Tang Soo Do Karate school sends 26 for black belt tests News Report - East Haddonfield,NJ,USA Liciaga, a fourth degree master instructor in tang soo do moo duk kwan, said that this is the largest black belt test in the history of the Browns Mills ... See all stories on this topic --------------------------------- This as-it-happens Google Alert is brought to you by Google. Remove this alert. Create another alert. Manage your alerts. Karate school sends 26 for black belt tests By David Maccar; Editor Local martial arts Master, Peter Liciaga of Liciaga's Karate Academy in Browns Mills will be sending 26 black belt candidates for their bi-annual black belt testing.The 26 candidates, the youngest at age 6, the eldest at 41, will head to the Burlington County Institute of Technology (BCIT) on April 19 for their testing. Liciaga, a fourth degree master instructor in tang soo do moo duk kwan, said that this is the largest black belt test in the history of the Browns Mills karate academy. "This was one of the most successful black belt tests we have had," Liciaga said. "The reason for the success is our highly dedicated black belt instructors who have teamed up to create such extraordinary quality." First degree testers include: Colin Biggs, Keon Boatwright, Alexis Bowling, Isabel Castro-Bivins, Manuel Colon-Bodie, Christina Cornish, Christopher Dutschman, Eric Dutschman, Kenny Flannery, Jasmine Fuller, Rudolph Grimm II, Rudolph Grimm III, Katrice Groce, Carlene Groce, Angeline Kahoun, Alexandra Liciaga, Ryan McEntee, Andrew Nuspickel, Joshua Pinto, Laurianna Sanabria, Tacyta Sanabria, C'lena Sanabria and Bryanna Sanabria. Second degree testers include: Paul Baker, Aleah LaForce and Michael Waldo. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:07:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Question for Dojang Owners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> That is cheap! I have spent 1k a month for that size ad. JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:53:56 -0800 From: dan scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan change in sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sparring changes since the 70's have been considerable. Full contact sparring was not about winning, It was taught rather as a growth experience to expand your conditioning both physical and mental. Some times you win by strength, sometimes you win by being smarter and some times luck of judging. The point was to do your best and learn from it. Strong physical hard contact could better prepare you to defend yourself on the street because you are not only training to give contact but to take contact. Sparring was to simulate fighting to the death with out death. The psychological benefits from participating in simulated death events are surviving the event not just first place medals. By taking things to the limit a person gains a new perspective on combative or confrontational issues. More confidence and lower heart rate when presented with stressful situations are just a few of these benefits. As the need to become more inclusive of families and children the training and the rules have evolved. Another environmental factor that led to the changing of traditional full contact sparring was litigation in the 80's and 90's that led many Master's to reconsider what they wanted to expose themselves to in liability. I personally know of many Koreans that have the opinion that American's are a litigious culture and experienced first hand the possibility of loosing their Do Jang's and everything they own due to frivolous law suits. I remember calling in an equipment order for another remote village to be taught and I wanted 30 large blue kick targets. I like these targets because it is beneficial to the person holding the target to loose their fear of being hit and develop proper breathing and balance. The person kicking also needs resistive targets that will push back so their supportive leg develops strength with penetrating kicks and converting their body weight with follow up hand techniques. I was told OH!!! Sparring and competition has changed!! Nobody kicks hard or uses heavy bag anymore. Just mostly kids now and action is very fast you should only use small hand targets now. That is a perspective of an original Master. This master and many others now regret taking that position but again the market place at the time seemed to deem going this way. A second environmental factor that led to the watering down of full contact sparring and training relates to both money and litigation. From a marketing and income stand point sparring in the early days became a survival of the fittest. A bully attitude was developed and instead of kicking people out or giving them proper discipline they were given higher rank because trophies related to new students. Later these individuals were not good instructors and would drive students away even causing injuries because true loyalty and discipline had not been put first over money and rank advancement. Over time things were watered down even more because it was less likely to have a problem with weaker students. You can even go further on the racial division where the opinion was that the best knowledge was always saved for Koreans only and many of us went out side the style or to others to get better self defense knowledge. I think any ethnic style had that division at one time even one Asian race against another but I think any worthy student can learn all he has ability to learn. I don't think we can resolve in a day what took four decades to get to this point but we can focus on the positive and I am hopeful for the new national organization which draws closer to Kukkiwon and traditional values. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:02:27 -0800 From: dan scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan Two Tae Kwon Do? Two Styles and Who changed. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First there has been a comment that people claiming TKD has changed are wrong and that there is only one Tae Kwon Do, not modern verses old, not Olympic verses traditional? With respect I would beg to differ. Every single original Master now Grand Master/Great Grand Master/Supreme Grand Master Holds to the opinion of both Modern Olympic TKD and Traditional/indigenous TKD as different. This is very evident in both printed business cards and in many text books published by the same. Our NW association which has a life long membership of hundreds of black belts one of which was selected as a U.S Ref for the Olympics this year has published its own text book now in its 8th edition. Our text book has clearly taught and it is a requirement of people testing for 1st Dan to have a good understanding of this and the meaning of Jido Kwan and loyalty to that philosophy. Also I would like to point out that Olympic style sparring has changed from the original in a second post. Thank you. --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:45:50 -0400 From: kriskohn@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm curious.  Does Kukkiwon have certain standards that must be met in order to become a black belt?  And if someone understands and performs those standards, should they not be honored with that belt?  Is it not true that under a certain age you receive a 'poom' and not a Dan?  USA-TKD has an age bracket for 6-7 year old black belts.  Is that most unusual with Korea and other countries?  My my husband and my son are both 1st degree black belts one a Dan and one a poom respectively.  I think my 8 year old son demonstrates much better technique and agility then my 40 year old husband, of course.  They both respect what that belt means and its responsibilities. The first month  after my son earned his black belt, he slept with it and carried it to school with him in his back pack.  You would never see my son jump rope with his belt.  But then again, where he trains, that would never be tolerated. My shy son has turned into quite a confident person, so I am so happy he had the opportunity to be introduced to TKD at such and early age.  His Korean Masters have had such a positive impact.  I also love that he is fascinated with Korean culture and is learning to speak Korean, even outside of the studio.  I'm just a side line Mom.. so don't everyone jump down my throat.  I love what the TKD experience has done for my son and even my husband, the respect and honor and loyalty is evident it both.  I'm proud what they have accomplished and continue to achieve.  It just doesn't see like TKD has an age. -----Original Message----- From: Master Aaron Locke To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? I have a few comments and I will just say it, this is BS. If this is true, then I personally would have 0% respect for this master. I admittedly have strong opinions about children training in the martial arts, and very very strong opinions regarding children testing for black belt. Just by way of explanation, at my school, I do not take students under the age of 6 and those 6-7 yr olds have a different curriculum than older students, one that is more in keeping with their age and maturity. No one at my school gets a black belt before the age of 13, period. So a 6-yr-old black belt is highly offensive to me. Here is the main reason why. If you do the math, using the standard time periods for Dan level promotion, this child will be a 2nd Dan at age 8, a 3rd Dan at age 11, a 4th Dan at age 15, a 5th Dan at age 20, a 6th Dan at age 26, a 7th Dan at age 31, an 8th Dan at age 39 and a 9th Dan at age 48. Most of use are probably in the range of 3rd through 6-7th Dan and I assume we are all adults who are committed to the martial arts and probably own schools or have clubs. I am 29 and about to test for 5th Dan in TSD in a few months. I have been training for 19 yrs and feel that promotion to that rank is too soon given my age and experience. I can hardly fathom a child getting a 5th Dan at age 20, two full years before he would be graduating college. That is absolutely ridiculous. Think about it, a 20-something strutting around at tournaments with so many tips on his belt that you can hardly count them. I would hope that training would give him a sense of maturity, but who can say that would be the case? Nothing can be gained by promotion kids that early. All that does is cause the belt itself to be devalued. Adults who are working incredibly hard for all those years see a 6 yr old black belt running around playing tag w/ other kids, or using his coveted black belt as a jump rope (I have seen that one w/ my own eyes more than once). Basically these kids are just acting like kids, but they shouldn't be wearing black belts while they do it. That type of behavior is to be expected from a child of that age, but what it does is take away the meaning behind that belt and that rank from the adults who are striving to achieve it. It is great that Master Liciaga has so many people promoting to black belt, but there absolutely should be age restrictions on these promotions. There is a certain level of responsibility that comes with promotion to black belt, especially the higher levels of black belt, and promoting a 6-yr-old child to that rank is highly offensive to me. Master Aaron Locke Locke's Karate Academy 17007 Bel-Ray Blvd. Belton, Missouri 64012 (816) 322-5557 www.kansascity@pakskarate.com -----Original Message----- From: Samurai Latino [mailto:samurai_latino@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:40 AM To: 'MA Business Newsgroup' Subject: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? Hello Everyone, Just read the article below. There is a statement that reads "the youngest at age 6, the eldest at 41". So my question is... was this child between the ages of 3 to 4 yrs old when he or she started? I believe we have had this subject before but it was about a reasonable age to be elegible to test for black belt. I'm just curious. Any comments? "Rafael" Choson Martial Arts Google News Alert for: Tang Soo Do Karate school sends 26 for black belt tests News Report - East Haddonfield,NJ,USA Liciaga, a fourth degree master instructor in tang soo do moo duk kwan, said that this is the largest black belt test in the history of the Browns Mills ... See all stories on this topic --------------------------------- This as-it-happens Google Alert is brought to you by Google. Remove this alert. Create another alert. Manage your alerts. Karate school sends 26 for black belt tests By David Maccar; Editor Local martial arts Master, Peter Liciaga of Liciaga's Karate Academy in Browns Mills will be sending 26 black belt candidates for their bi-annual black belt testing.The 26 candidates, the youngest at age 6, the eldest at 41, will head to the Burlington County Institute of Technology (BCIT) on April 19 for their testing. Liciaga, a fourth degree master instructor in tang soo do moo duk kwan, said that this is the largest black belt test in the history of the Browns Mills karate academy. "This was one of the most successful black belt tests we have had," Liciaga said. "The reason for the success is our highly dedicated black belt instructors who have teamed up to create such extraordinary quality." First degree testers include: Colin Biggs, Keon Boatwright, Alexis Bowling, Isabel Castro-Bivins, Manuel Colon-Bodie, Christina Cornish, Christopher Dutschman, Eric Dutschman, Kenny Flannery, Jasmine Fuller, Rudolph Grimm II, Rudolph Grimm III, Katrice Groce, Carlene Groce, Angeline Kahoun, Alexandra Liciaga, Ryan McEntee, Andrew Nuspickel, Joshua Pinto, Laurianna Sanabria, Tacyta Sanabria, C'lena Sanabria and Bryanna Sanabria. Second degree testers include: Paul Baker, Aleah LaForce and Michael Waldo. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:24:39 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01 On Apr 17, 2008, at 7:45 PM, kriskohn@aol.com wrote: > I'm curious. Does Kukkiwon have certain standards that must be met > in order > to become a black belt? --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan change in sparring Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 19:09:20 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In Korea? No, not for the top competitors. They were not training in dojangs, but in high school and college gyms. They called their instructors our equivalent to Coach. The focus was on learning how to get faster, quicker, have better balance (yes, with the hands down), how to win top tournies like the Korean Nationals. There was no altruism involved or focus on becoming a better person. They were there to win. And Coaches from the JiDo Kwan led the way, much of the time. This was the way of the top competitors that came out of the TKD high school and Judo college (the Judo college had a TKD team). You stayed in the TKD high school or kept your college scholarship because you won, not because you were becoming a better person. I'm not saying that is a good thing. It is just the way it was, and still is in the martial sport of Kukki-Taekwondo. Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net On Apr 17, 2008, at 5:53 PM, dan scholten wrote: > parring changes since the 70's have been considerable. Full contact > sparring was not about winning, It was taught rather as a growth > experience > to expand your conditioning both physical and mental. --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:58:17 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I most say I do get tired of this gimmickry. I have not trained in about a year due to a falling out with my instructor. Since then I have struggled to find an instructor with the requisite integrity for me to train with. I don't want to sound like I am spouting platitudes of piety. Moreover, when talking about integrity I am talking about instructors that charge ridiculous fees and then ensure that you can virtually buy your black belt. I DO believe in boosting the confidence of our youngsters. Notwithstanding, I feel at least here too many clubs in my area almost prey on the vulnerable, the ones that are bullied at school. The parents of these children don't want them to be victims so they pay the fees so they can build their confidence and learn to defend themselves. When some of these young pupils have come to train their technique in all areas have been poor Peter -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:thedojang@sbcglobal.net] Sent: 18 April 2008 04:25 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01 On Apr 17, 2008, at 7:45 PM, kriskohn@aol.com wrote: > I'm curious. Does Kukkiwon have certain standards that must be met > in order > to become a black belt? _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety Visit the London Fire Brigade Shop at www.lfbshop.co.uk This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:48:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: jyesluv@hotmail.com Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD clips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net zzzzz..... http://youtube.com/watch?v=agJ3AjRN6sI&feature=related Taekwondo ITF-Japan female sparring: http://youtube.com/watch?v=sEb2QpqHSTY&feature=related ITF Argentina 2002 junior world championship female: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oJS-uVErQTU&feature=related chondung-training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_bCTig-6g&feature=related --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 06:08:50 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sport Taekwondo Dominates Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sport Taekwondo Dominates Both Forms, Sparring to Finish Second Omar Fernández TEAM MEMBER April 18, 2008 The Tech The MIT Sport Taekwondo Club finished second out of eighteen teams at the fourth Ivy Northeast Collegiate Taekwondo League tournament of the season, held at the University of Pennsylvania on April 5. The MIT team, led by Coach Dan Chuang, finished with 423 points, only 60 points behind first place Cornell University. The day began with forms competition, or poomsae, in which competitors show their skills by performing a set of choreographed techniques. These forms are judged based on precision, power, grace, and rhythm. The MIT team dominated the color belt competition, placing competitors among the top three in all but one division. Christine M. Lee '09 and Corinna Hui '09 secured gold and silver medals, respectively, in the very competitive red belt division, while Omar E. Fernández '10 took bronze in the men's division. Forrest W. Liau G impressed everyone with his power and technique, earning gold in men's blue belt forms. Elisabeth M. Markham '09 and Ranbel F. Sun '10 won gold and bronze respectively in the women's division. In the green belt division, ZheChen "Mary" Hong '10 and Michael Schneider G earned gold and bronze medals, respectively, while Andrew K. Sugaya '11 took a bronze medal in the massive white/yellow belt division. Immediately following poomsae competition, the sparring competition started with the advanced (A-team) level, in which MIT women's A1 team (Rebecca Hung '11, Hui, Stephanie R. Chiang '08, and JiHye Kim '10) secured a bronze medal after facing three very competitive teams. The tournament continued with beginner level sparring (C-team) where the MIT women's C1 team (Jennifer T. Huang '08, Hong, and Elizabeth M. George '08) had a very impressive comeback to the medal rounds, finishing first in their division. In the men's division, MIT's C2 team (Mark J. Yen '11, Matthew G. Escoto '11, and Schneider) stayed strong in the competitive men's C-team field, obtaining bronze. The tournament concluded with intermediate level sparring (B-team) in which the MIT women's teams continued their season long excellence by placing three teams in the medal rounds. MIT teams B1 (Sun, Hui, and Chiang), B2 (Jaclyn J. Ho '09, Han Zhu '10, and Markham), and B3 (Huang, Stephanie E. Nix '09, and Christine Chin '09) won gold, silver and bronze respectively, while the B4 team (Jing "Jenny" Cheng '11, Hong, and George) was only a point away from the medal round. In the men's division, MIT B1 team (Ning Wu G, co-captain Christopher J. Han '09, and Liau) obtained a silver medal after four strong matches, losing only to Cornell's B1 team. The club will compete in the last INCTL tournament of the season on April 20 at Columbia University. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest