Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 00:21:03 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #105 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,300 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. thats why its caled an opinion (sidekicks) 2. Re: 6yr old black belt? (Lasich, Mark D.) 3. Re: Full Contact Sparring (ruboo52) 4. Sparring...a GAME (Robert Wood) 5. Re: thats why its caled an opinion (Master Aaron Locke) 6. Re: Sparring...a GAME (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 7. Re: Sparring...a GAME (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "sidekicks" To: Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:17:07 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] thats why its caled an opinion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Message: 1 > From: "Master Aaron Locke" > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:29:04 +0000 > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I have a few comments and I will just say it, this is BS. If this is true, > then I personally would have 0% respect for this master. > > I admittedly have strong opinions about children training in the martial > arts, > and very very strong opinions regarding children testing for black belt. > Just > by way of explanation, at my school, I do not take students under the age > of 6 > and those 6-7 yr olds have a different curriculum than older students, one > that is more in keeping with their age and maturity. > > No one at my school gets a black belt before the age of 13, period. So a > 6-yr-old black belt is highly offensive to me. Here is the main reason > why. If > you do the math, using the standard time periods for Dan level promotion, > this > child will be a 2nd Dan at age 8, a 3rd Dan at age 11, a 4th Dan at age > 15, a > 5th Dan at age 20, a 6th Dan at age 26, a 7th Dan at age 31, an 8th Dan at > age > 39 and a 9th Dan at age 48. > > Most of use are probably in the range of 3rd through 6-7th Dan and I > assume we > are all adults who are committed to the martial arts and probably own > schools > or have clubs. I am 29 and about to test for 5th Dan in TSD in a few > months. I > have been training for 19 yrs and feel that promotion to that rank is too > soon > given my age and experience. I can hardly fathom a child getting a 5th Dan > at > age 20, two full years before he would be graduating college. That is > absolutely ridiculous. Think about it, a 20-something strutting around at > tournaments with so many tips on his belt that you can hardly count them. > I > would hope that training would give him a sense of maturity, but who can > say > that would be the case? Nothing can be gained by promotion kids that > early. > All that does is cause the belt itself to be devalued. Adults who are > working > incredibly hard for all those years see a 6 yr old black belt running > around > playing tag w/ other kids, or using his coveted black belt as a jump rope > (I > have seen that one w/ my own eyes more than once). Basically these kids > are > just acting like kids, but they shouldn't be wearing black belts while > they do > it. That type of behavior is to be expected from a child of that age, but > what > it does is take away the meaning behind that belt and that rank from the > adults who are striving to achieve it. > > It is great that Master Liciaga has so many people promoting to black > belt, > but there absolutely should be age restrictions on these promotions. There > is > a certain level of responsibility that comes with promotion to black belt, > especially the higher levels of black belt, and promoting a 6-yr-old child > to > that rank is highly offensive to me. > > Master Aaron Locke > Locke's Karate Academy > 17007 Bel-Ray Blvd. > Belton, Missouri 64012 > (816) 322-5557 > www.kansascity@pakskarate.com >> Master Locke: I know people who would take great offence to a 29 year old "master" handing out a black belt to anyone under the age of 18. I guess it all depends on how you look at things. The reason I put master in quotes is because these same people also take offence to anyone referring to themselves as master. That's the great thing about opinions, we all have them and there is a reference to opinions having something in common with another body part that we all have. I also happen to disagree with handing out a black belt to a 6 year old, however, what this person does has no bearing on what I do. Now I know some people will say that it sullies the meaning behind the black belt and that ruins it for the rest of us. Iwas in South Korea two years ago with quite a few of my students and fellow members of our organization and I was quite surprised to see 5 and 6 year old Korean children running around with black belts on. So to me, the meaning of the black belt is left up to the instructor handing them out. If you hand them out a dime a dozen, they mean one thing to you, but something else to me. If I make you wait until you are 18, put you through a 7 day gruelling workout and test, have you write a thesis on what a black belt is and whatever else you may be able to do, then it means something totally different. I know for me, I do what the bulk of my instructors have done. I follow what I am used to, as I imagine do you. So, he who caste the first stone...or, he who throws rocks in glass houses, something like that. and my title, is Dusty, Kwanjang, which was bestowed upon me by my instructor. I believe kwan jang is 'head of school' and that is what I am. I don't care much for the title of Master as I am the master of nothing except making boneheaded moves...and sticking my foot in my mouth... :) Supreme eternal great grandmaster of nothing, Dusty --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:15:28 -0400 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 6yr old black belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rafael wrote: "I believe we have had this subject before but it was about a reasonable age to be elegible to test for black belt. I'm just curious." I had a similar conversation with a non-martial artist friend recently who insisted that "no kid should be a black belt" - citing physical strength, body structure, etc. I pointed out to him that it can (should) be more than just recognition of physical ability: add the confidence, leadership, physical skill, focus, discipline, perseverance, respect and more that are developed during your gup training, then I believe that you can earn the right to begin down the path of being a black belt. For me it boils down to a distinction between "having" a black belt, and "being" one. If it becomes just a target, meeting certain requirements, then anyone at whatever age should be recognized if they can complete the checklist. However, if it becomes a "way of life" and an avenue to learn and grow and develop the overall person, then it just may take a bit more time and maturity to be able to fully engage in the "new beginning" that training as a black belt can offer. My 10 year old son is not a black belt, but he nailed this thought, for me, recently: After years of playing organized baseball, two years ago he decided to take some time off. He continued with Taekwondo and Scouts, but when he recently joined a Saturday morning bowling league, this conversation followed: Son: "Finally, I'm involved in a sport again" Dad: "What about Taekwondo?" Son: "Is that a sport?" I believe his involvement in Taekwondo has become so much a part of what he does and who he is, that it never even occurred to him that Taekwondo is considered a sport - even had point to the Olympics to convince him! In the spirit, Mark www.karatequips.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "ruboo52" To: Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 10:23:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Full Contact Sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been in the Martial arts for almost 30 years now. I would just like to know what full contact is considered to be? In my openion any one who learns Martial Arts Can go full contact but look at the concinqunces of it would you really want a guy like Bill Braddack or any man or woman kicking you with the intent to kill or cripple you up to me that is what full contact is to throw a kick or punch without regard to what injury or not caring what damage it does to your opponent. Now hard contact is another thing you can fight hard and still be in control of your power and fighting techniques. I have seen uncontrolled full contact mane and kill several students In the days when you had to fight to survive full contact might have had to be the way, But most people who train in Martial Arts Since I can remember have been professional people who do it for the love of learning the art or for the fun of Martial Arts So I guess I am not sure what you mean with Full contact? full out full force hitting and kicking techniques or a form of hard contact with controlled results? A Very Well Known Grand Master of Tang Soo Do once told me that it takes more training and makes you a better Martial artist to control you techniques and never hurt or harm your students or opponents unless it becomes a matter of your life being on the line or protecting one of your loved ones. Master Dan I mean you no disrespect at all I am trying to figure out what most people mean by full contact any more to me it means that your trying to kill or mane some one with all that you have so if you could clarify what full contact is I would be most appreciative of that. again I mean no disrespect to no one but am trying to understand the terminology that people use when they say FULL CONTACT. sincerely Sah Dan Keith --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Robert Wood To: Dojang Digest Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 11:42:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sparring...a GAME Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK…I have been reading about this sparring thread and I have watched the videos. I am a 1st Dan in a Traditional TKD. In speaking with our Grandmaster he said that the TKD we train in is from Kong Soo Do; which is to say we are very much like a hard Okinawa style of karate. Matter of fact Kong Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation “empty handed way”. When we spar we do not use hands to the head (safety/insurance reasons) and we do not kick to the face or the top of the head (safety/insurance reasons). A hand technique is worth one point and a kicking technique is worth one point, it levels the playing field. Having said all that we must remember sparring is a GAME. The value of the GAME is to teach timing, distance, and reaction. We just had our local tournament and I spared a gentle (and lost) due to his intercepting side kick, I not much of a kicker. In the GAME I attempted to trade his one kick for two or three punches, his inside game is as good as mine. The next gentleman I fought came to our style form the ATA. He would drop his hands and I would get off three or four punches and even a kick of two. I won that match. I find it disturbing to judge a martial arts style by the way they play the GAME. I know that there is a touchy subject about traditional HKD and Combat HKD. I do not know enough to speak on the subject; however I do not judge one to be “superior” to the other either. We need to look at what does the martial art style teach the student. Does it instruct the student in honor, courage, and respect or how to dominate and destroy (i.e MMA)? in His service, Rob Wood Knowing is not enough, you must apply...Willing is not enough, you must do. -- Bruce LeeI am careful not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business -- Michael J. Fox _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_ instantaccess_042008 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Master Aaron Locke" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:58:51 +0000 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] thats why its caled an opinion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dusty, What exactly are you saying here? You seem to contradict yourself in a few places. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I don't quite follow you. I am saying that my title of Master, or "Sa bum nim" if you like, is one that was bestowed upon me when I was promoted to 4th Dan. It was part of the promotion. I didn't feel qualified for that title back then and I still won't feel qualified for the title of master when I test for 5th Dan in a few months, despite almost 20 yrs of training. Please explain to me how what you are saying is different than what I am saying. To be clear, and to speak my opinion (which everyone does indeed have), I strongly disagree w/ any child, regardless of physical prowess or maturity from becoming or being given a black belt, however you want to look at it. I believe that it devalues what the adults are striving to achieve and the children can't possibly understand what is involved in being a black belt (as opposed to having one). Anyone can be given a black belt, but to actually become one is something entirely different. I have seen some kids that can do amazing things that many adults could never do, but those physical talents don't mean anything as far as I am concerned. I have more respect for an older person that can teach, explain and understand the techniques than for a 12 yr old that can actually do them well, but has no understanding of how to teach it, where it came from, what its purpose is, etc. I am sorry if you misconstued my post, but hopefully this one cleared it up for you. Master Aaron Locke Locke's Karate Academy 17007 Bel-Ray Blvd. Belton, Missouri 64012 (816) 322-5557 www.kansascity@pakskarate.com -----Original Message----- From: sidekicks [mailto:sidekicks@cogeco.ca] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 09:17 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] thats why its caled an opinion > Message: 1 > From: "Master Aaron Locke" > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:29:04 +0000 > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 6yr old black belt? > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I have a few comments and I will just say it, this is BS. If this is true, > then I personally would have 0% respect for this master. > > I admittedly have strong opinions about children training in the martial > arts, > and very very strong opinions regarding children testing for black belt. > Just > by way of explanation, at my school, I do not take students under the age > of 6 > and those 6-7 yr olds have a different curriculum than older students, one > that is more in keeping with their age and maturity. > > No one at my school gets a black belt before the age of 13, period. So a > 6-yr-old black belt is highly offensive to me. Here is the main reason > why. If > you do the math, using the standard time periods for Dan level promotion, > this > child will be a 2nd Dan at age 8, a 3rd Dan at age 11, a 4th Dan at age > 15, a > 5th Dan at age 20, a 6th Dan at age 26, a 7th Dan at age 31, an 8th Dan at > age > 39 and a 9th Dan at age 48. > > Most of use are probably in the range of 3rd through 6-7th Dan and I > assume we > are all adults who are committed to the martial arts and probably own > schools > or have clubs. I am 29 and about to test for 5th Dan in TSD in a few > months. I > have been training for 19 yrs and feel that promotion to that rank is too > soon > given my age and experience. I can hardly fathom a child getting a 5th Dan > at > age 20, two full years before he would be graduating college. That is > absolutely ridiculous. Think about it, a 20-something strutting around at > tournaments with so many tips on his belt that you can hardly count them. > I > would hope that training would give him a sense of maturity, but who can > say > that would be the case? Nothing can be gained by promotion kids that > early. > All that does is cause the belt itself to be devalued. Adults who are > working > incredibly hard for all those years see a 6 yr old black belt running > around > playing tag w/ other kids, or using his coveted black belt as a jump rope > (I > have seen that one w/ my own eyes more than once). Basically these kids > are > just acting like kids, but they shouldn't be wearing black belts while > they do > it. That type of behavior is to be expected from a child of that age, but > what > it does is take away the meaning behind that belt and that rank from the > adults who are striving to achieve it. > > It is great that Master Liciaga has so many people promoting to black > belt, > but there absolutely should be age restrictions on these promotions. There > is > a certain level of responsibility that comes with promotion to black belt, > especially the higher levels of black belt, and promoting a 6-yr-old child > to > that rank is highly offensive to me. > > Master Aaron Locke > Locke's Karate Academy > 17007 Bel-Ray Blvd. > Belton, Missouri 64012 > (816) 322-5557 > www.kansascity@pakskarate.com >> Master Locke: I know people who would take great offence to a 29 year old "master" handing out a black belt to anyone under the age of 18. I guess it all depends on how you look at things. The reason I put master in quotes is because these same people also take offence to anyone referring to themselves as master. That's the great thing about opinions, we all have them and there is a reference to opinions having something in common with another body part that we all have. I also happen to disagree with handing out a black belt to a 6 year old, however, what this person does has no bearing on what I do. Now I know some people will say that it sullies the meaning behind the black belt and that ruins it for the rest of us. Iwas in South Korea two years ago with quite a few of my students and fellow members of our organization and I was quite surprised to see 5 and 6 year old Korean children running around with black belts on. So to me, the meaning of the black belt is left up to the instructor handing them out. If you hand them out a dime a dozen, they mean one thing to you, but something else to me. If I make you wait until you are 18, put you through a 7 day gruelling workout and test, have you write a thesis on what a black belt is and whatever else you may be able to do, then it means something totally different. I know for me, I do what the bulk of my instructors have done. I follow what I am used to, as I imagine do you. So, he who caste the first stone...or, he who throws rocks in glass houses, something like that. and my title, is Dusty, Kwanjang, which was bestowed upon me by my instructor. I believe kwan jang is 'head of school' and that is what I am. I don't care much for the title of Master as I am the master of nothing except making boneheaded moves...and sticking my foot in my mouth... :) Supreme eternal great grandmaster of nothing, Dusty _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,300 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sparring...a GAME To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:30:03 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings to all, I'm out of lurker mode and would like to add my two cents. In our dojang we practice No contact, Light contact and Hard Contact (full) sparring AFTER a strenuous workout. At tournaments, we use Hard contact, but that is limited by the individual judges. Some call feet/face contact a foul, others only call foul for drawing blood. Maybe the different perceptions of what sparring is/should be comes from the different definitions/origins of the word - Sparring. Here are a few of my favorite definitions of SPARRING (I especially like the reference to gamecocks - hands down): 1 (of boxers) to make the motions of attack and defense with the arms and . fists, esp. as a part of training. 2. to box, esp. with light blows. 3. to strike or attack with the feet or spurs, as gamecocks do. 4. to bandy words; dispute. –noun 5. a motion of sparring. 6. a boxing match. 7. a dispute. intr.v.   sparred, spar·ring, spars a. To fight with an opponent in a short bout or practice session, as in boxing or the martial arts. b. To make boxing or fighting motions without hitting one's opponent. 2. To bandy words about in argument; dispute. 3. To fight by striking with the feet and spurs. Used of gamecocks. n. 1. A motion of attack or defense in boxing. 2. A sparring match. n o u n 1 an argument in which the participants are trying to gain some . advantage 2 making the motions of attack and defense with the fists and arms; a . part of training for a boxer 1. To strike with the feet or spurs, as cocks do. 2. To use the fists and arms scientifically in attack or defense; to contend or combat with the fists, as for exercise or amusement; to box. Made believe to spar at Paul with great science. --Dickens. 3. To contest in words; to wrangle. [Colloq.] --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sparring...a GAME Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:13:47 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have been reading about this sparring thread and I have watched the > videos. I am a 1st Dan in a Traditional TKD. In speaking with our > Grandmaster he said that the TKD we train in is from Kong Soo Do; > which is > to say we are very much like a hard Okinawa style of karate. Matter > of fact > Kong Soo Do is the Korean pronunciation “empty handed way”. Kong Soo Do = Empty Hand Way = Kara Te Do Tang Soo Do = China Hand Way = Kara Te Do TSD was more typically used in Korea and is the older name, but Kong Soo Do was used by the Ji Do Kwan. That doesn't really imply it is closely related to Okinawan Te, more of a marketing angle than anything else. imho The below may be of interest... Ray ============================================= Chapter 1 Section 2: Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu (Ji Do Kwan) The Ji Do Kwan was founded by an elite member, Chun Sang Sup, on May 3, 1946, as the Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu. When he was a teenager he learned Judo and learned Karate while studying abroad in Japan. After the Independence Day he opened the Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu at the former Judo school, Choson Yun Moo Kwan, where he taught Judo and Karate. He began to recruit new members. He had a slender figure and was not particular, but was an intellect and always wore suits. However during the Korean War he vanished, the Choson Yun Moo Kwan Kong Soo Do Bu was abolished and it was renamed Ji Do Kwan. After Independence Day the Choson Yun Moo Kwan taught no guep (mu guep) to 8th guep in high, middle and low classes. The student's Kwan number was based on guep promotion and not only the day of the first registration as a student. The Choson Yun Moo Kwan was started in Seoul, but the major development and structural growth was spread from Chun Ju, Cholla Buk Do as a center. Then Chun Il Sup opened another school in Kunsan, Cholla Buk Do in May 1947, and spread his school's reputation from Jun Joo to Kunsan, I Ri, Nam Won, Jung Uep and more. During the Korean War the Choson Yun Moo Kwan's name was changed to Ji Do Kwan. After Chun Sang Sup was kidnapped to North Korea the Ji Do Kwan (Wisdom Way School) was opened and ran by Yoon Kwe Byung and Lee Chong Woo until 1967. However through the process of unification with the Korea Tae Soo Do Association the Ji Do Kwan had conflicts between Yoon Kwe Byung and Lee Chong Woo. Led by Lee Chong Woo (Ji Do Kwan), Lee Nam Suk (Chang Moo Kwan), Uhm Woon Kyu (Chung Do Kwan), Hyun Jong Myun (Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do Kwan) and others planned to unify, but Yoon Kwe Byung and Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan) declined and persisted on their self testing committee. Ji Do Kwan graduates were (1) Bae Young Ki, (2) Lee Chong Woo, (3) Kim Bok Nam, 4) Park Hyun Jung, (5) Lee Soo Jin, (6) Jung Jin Young, (7) Lee Kyo Yoon, (8) Lee Byung Ro, (9) Hong Chang Jin, (10) Park Young Kuen and others. Ji Do Kwan's distinguished difference from other schools was mainly based on Kyorugi (sparring). When Taekwondo tournaments became active from the beginning of the 1960's to the 1970's the Ji Do Kwan distinguished itself. The major representatives were Lee Seung Wan, Cho Jum Sun, Hwang Dae Jin, Choi Young Ryul and more. Ji Do Kwan's representing annex was the Han Moo Kwan. But Lee Kyo Yoon said the Han Moo Kwan root is not Ji Do Kwan, but rather the Choson Yun Moo Kwan. This shows the debate of the origins of the school. Ji Do Kwan's first Kwan Jang was Chun Sang Sup, the second Kwan Jang was Yoon Kwe Byung and the third Lee Chong Woo. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest