Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:24:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #245 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re:Poomse Worst or just different (Rick Clark) 2. Re: Re:Poomse Worst or just different (Ray) 3. Re: Re:Poomse Worst or just different (rick.aodenkou@verizon.net) 4. Re: Poomse worst or just different (Kevin Luttrell) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:25:25 -0400 From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, Naihanchi? Yep or in Korean terms Chulgi :-) Ray Rick Clark On Sep 14, 2008, at 5:33 AM, Rick Clark wrote: > Personally I have been working on only one form for the past > 12 or so years, yes I still remember and I do sometimes go through > the other > forms. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 17:59:38 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have seen a different version of Naihanchi done in some (many?) Isshinryu schools. Is that standard for Isshinryu? If so, what is the history behind the two versions? Ray On Sep 14, 2008, at 5:25 PM, Rick Clark wrote: > Hi Ray, > > Naihanchi? > > Yep or in Korean terms Chulgi :-) > Ray > > Rick Clark > > On Sep 14, 2008, at 5:33 AM, Rick Clark wrote: > >> Personally I have been working on only one form for the past >> 12 or so years, yes I still remember and I do sometimes go through >> the other >> forms. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:59:23 -0500 (CDT) From: rick.aodenkou@verizon.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > I have seen a different version of Naihanchi done in some (many?) > Isshinryu schools.  Is that standard for Isshinryu? If so, what is the history behind the two versions? There are a lot of different versions of Naihanchi/Chulgi. But in the end the ones I have seen are very similar in nature, some minor differences to be sure but minor. The differences could be ascribed to faulty memory of students or an individual had a slightly different application to a movement and made use of it in the form. The version I do if from Chung Do Kwan which in turn was from pre WWII Shotokan. So there are some minor differences between the JKA Shotokan version and the Chung Do Kwan version. After WWII Shotokan made the transition to JKA Shotokan which went to the longer and lower stances we see today. In the Japanese version of Karate Do Kyohan you will see Gichin Funakoshi performing the various kata in a much higher stance, more typical of Okinawan Karate. Now you will hear from some that Funakoshi was an "older" man when he was photographed doing the various Kata and could not perform the lower stances you see with JKA Shotokan - but I think this is rubish. He was my age or younger and I can still do the lower stances - not all day mind you - but I could do them for a book. Or for that matter just Jhoon Ree, tell me he could not do the photos doing a longer stance....... Anyway, I have had fun sometimes at breaks of seminars I have been teaching where I have some Shotokan folks and TKD folks sitting around talking during a break. Each group has their own view of history and tend to have a view that their style is old and based on some ancient tradition. I can talke with some degree of knowledge on both arts, have been involved in Chung Do Kwan for a long time, and being around Shotokan for almost as long. When I tell them that TKD came from Shotokan they get a smile on their face and the TKD folks look a little glum. BUT I shift the tables a bit and tell the Shotokan folks that the TKD I practice is a more traditional form of Shotokan because what I practice is a pre JKA version of Funakoshi's art. That tends to make the TKD folks smile and in the end both are happy because they both get a bit :-) Rick Clark Ray On Sep 14, 2008, at 5:25 PM, Rick Clark wrote: > Hi Ray, > > Naihanchi? > > Yep or in Korean terms Chulgi :-) > Ray > > Rick Clark > > On Sep 14, 2008, at 5:33 AM, Rick Clark wrote: > >> Personally I have been working on only one form for the past >> 12 or so years, yes I still remember and I do sometimes go through >> the other >> forms. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net   Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers applySubscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net   --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:16:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomse worst or just different Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I completely understand your perception, and I agree with most of your statements. But with the Taeguek poomse, I think you have to look at the systematic principle behind the complete set of poomse. Taeguk Il jang as represented by the utube video that you left the link for is from the Kukkiwon website. When observing this poomse alone, you can see the focus on learning to use walking stances on the left and right sides of the pattern and front stances up and down the middle. If you then look at Taeguek Ee jang you will observe that it has progressed to the use of a walking stance lunging into a front stance. Taeguek Sam jang progressed further making the hand and foot combinations a little more complex while performing the same weight transition from walking to front stances. So the scientific principle behind the set of forms is what I am pointing out.   Now, for the lower stances concern. I am not against lower stances, I too believe that low stances have great benefits to the practitioner. but scientifically, although you do become stronger, you dont necessarily learn proper body position for the most power potential. What I am saying is this, the focus of the Taeguek poomse is obviosly less about conditioning and more about the kinetic potential of the body. Long deep stances take your hips out of line, so if you focus on low stances without studying where your hips have to be during the application of a technique, that too can be just as flawed. Yes, you will be physically stronger but you still will not be able to generate your fullest power potential without the focus of the mechanics of the movements. So I believe a person must have a balanced study of the mechanics of movement and the conditioning too. So the focus on one set of Poomse may be more about conditioning and less about body mechanics or in the Taeguek Poomse case, the focus is more about the mechanics and less about conditioning.   I hope you understand, I dont disagree with anything you have said. I just have a little different point of view.     Master Kevin Luttrell °ÅvÀÎ ÁÖµÈluttrell Director ÁöµµÀÚ The Martial Artist Foundation ±º ¿¹¼ú°¡ ±âÃÊ TaeKwonDo Advantage Springfield, Mo.   Visit The Martial Artist Foundation ¹æ¹® °ü¸® À¥»çÀÌÆ® Official Website: www.sportTKD.com   Message: 1 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 15:57:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The paired poomsae To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My problem with TKD is if it's being promoted as a true martial art then it needs to include all those elements of true martial arts; body conditioning, forms that train the foundation (deeper stances) sensitivity work, and definitely more hand work. I'm really hard on TKD because I feel it should be much more then it is, and it should be amongst the top kicking arts out there, both for sport and for self defense! TKD should be like... when you mention it, there is automatic respect for the art.   There is none due to lack of exposure of the REAL martial side of TKD and because the focus seems to be more on business then enhancing the art. Just my opinion.   Jye --- On Sat, 9/13/08, zisheged@aol.com wrote: From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The paired poomsae To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 11:00 AM I guess I missed the boat on this one. The first I heard of the paired forms was on Youtube.? Jye makes a good point. Just exactly "how" should a new poomsae be organized? I recently had to demonsatrate Ship Jen and I couldn't understand it's connections. Master Zishe _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net -- __--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:37:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All TKD forms are too high. A deeper stance strengthens the legs, develops impeccable balance and root, and what this actually does is makes you move even better in your higher moblie stances. They also train you mentally so you can withstand the discomfort while building up your legs. I invite you to search TKD competitions on the net. They notice what happens when a TKD peson kicks someone, in full contact clips I've seen (and from personal experience) when the TKD guy kicks someone they tend to go off balance or get pushed backwards, why? SImple poor foundation.   I feel that if TKD is going to promote itself as a kicking art then it needs to get back to the basics and build up the very weapon it's supposed to be known for. Now as far as trashing the forms; I don't do anything for no reason. Anything I say or do is for a reason, and the reason here is because there is truth to it. It seems like KMA forms want to flow like chinese forms yet be powerful like japanese forms. Nothing wrong with that, but the approach is all wrong. An outsider looking in at chinese forms may think pretty moves, real flowery, but to someone who's trained in them and understand them they understand that while the moves are pleasing to the eye every move has a purpose; an application. The beauty comes from years of practice and understanding of the art body mechanics and fluid motion. I see in alot of various KMA their idea of fluid movement is just moving the hands real fast and the hands have no purpose.   I could go on and on, but let's just say this. If you're making up a form based on looks then don't call it martial arts. Forms teach intent, purpose and build up our foundation, and if they look  nice that's secondary.   Now that's the forms themselves. Then you have to take into account the practitioner's expression. I've seen alot of clips where there is nooooooooooooo intent at all. To be fair let me share a clip so you can see what i'm talking about.   Here is an example of a terrible form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fSFSebIJU&feature=related   Stance is too high, no root, can be uprooted easily, training only shoulder power,etc. The practitioner has no intent whatsoever. Surely not even you would think this is a good form, and that it's training the body for anything.   Jye         --- On Sat, 9/13/08, Kevin Luttrell wrote: From: Kevin Luttrell Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 1:12 AM I think that KMA poomse have a different focus that other forms. Designed not for self defense only but how to manage your weight, mobility, balance. If you study the Chang Hon (Chonji ect) you will see definate lower stances much stronger stable strength type stances. The Palgwe we see a little more focus on simpler more mobile combinations but still lower that the later Taeguek poomse. Taeguek poomse are much more upright, makes alot of sense to move in this direction since mobility helps in sport competition. Also allows for more natural movement and smooth, fast combinations. I personally like all the forms, as I look at the fact that they serve as tools to develop different aspects that make a stronger martial artist.   Just my opinion of course, but a broader view than that of someone who might trash the forms they dont like just because they have a narrow view of how useful or not useful they might be.     Master Kevin Luttrell °ÅvÀÎ ÁÖµÈluttrell Director ÁöµµÀÚ The Martial Artist Foundation ±º ¿¹¼ú°¡ ±âÃÊ TaeKwonDo Advantage Springfield, Mo.   Visit The Martial Artist Foundation ¹æ¹® °ü¸® À¥»çÀÌÆ® Official Website: www.sportTKD.com   Message: 4 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:01:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: New poomsae - 1 msg To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net No offense to anyone, but KMA's have the worse forms I've ever seen. They are just movements with no intent and it seems like someone said, "ok just put this and this together, yeah that works" with very little thought on fighting application. It seems to me that they focus on trying to look impressive, but to me what's impressive is when you take a real form dissect it and find the deeper meanings for the fighting apps, then when you see the form it's just that much better. This right here that I just watched was more of the same old junk.   Jye --- On Fri, 9/12/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: New poomsae - 1 msg To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, September 12, 2008, 11:54 AM You've seen the new (well not so new by now) pair poomsae, yes? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtA06JSE9zc Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net On Sep 11, 2008, at 6:47 PM, zisheged@aol.com wrote: > Has anyone heard of new poomsae for competion? These are supposed to > be from the kukkiwon. > > > Master Zishe _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net -- __--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:43:21 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ruling Out Konglish Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ruling Out Konglish Taekwondo Need to Change: Oh The Korea Times By Kang Seung-woo Staff Reporter 09-12-2008 Konglish is a sublanguage in which English words or phrases are used in a Korean context. While Konglish is often spoken by Koreans, people from English- speaking countries usually can't understand it. Oscar Oh, the chief organizer of the World Taekwondo Festival, stresses that Konglish should not be used in taekwondo, a martial art that originated in Korea. If the sport, which was marred by controversial refereeing at the Beijing Olympics, is going to thrive on a global level, Oh believes Korean taekwondo leaders should adjust to the needs of practitioners from other countries. ``I believe Korean people involved in taekwondo must change rather than maintain their control over the sport,'' Oh said in an interview with The Korea Times. ``We need to break the stereotype that Korea must do everything because taekwondo originated from the country. ``Sweeping four gold medals at the Olympics does not guarantee (Korea's) post of the suzerain state.'' The 55-year-old Oh, also the chairman of Chungcheong University, organized the annual World Taekwondo Festival in 1998 to strengthen Korea's status as the birth nation of taekwondo. ``South Korea proudly calls itself the suzerain country of taekwondo, but it has failed to deliver leadership,'' he said. ``The Seoul-backed World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) has focused on athletes competing in the Olympics or other international events, but what have we done for the 60 million others around the world learning the sport? ``South Korea should be the leader carrying the taekwondo spirit, providing programs and guidelines for all practitioners in and out of the nation. ``If so, Korea will be able to step back to a real taekwondo header.'' He said that scuffles between taekwondo leaders have hurt the sport and pushed people away from it. ``Because of interior rows, taekwondo is criticized,'' he said. ``Why do 60 million practitioners get blamed for a power struggle by a few kingpins?'' Oh has strived to unite taekwondo leaders. He invited members of the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF) to this year's taekwondo festival, which took place in Cheongju in July. It was the first time for the WTF and the ITF to be featured in one event. Oh also helped Choi Jung-hwa, the president of the ITF, return to Korea Monday for the first time in 34 years. Choi had expressed his will to come home through the Korean embassy in Canada in June and got the South Korean government's approval. The ITF, now a London-based body, was established in 1966 and its headquarters were moved out of South Korea after the Korean government refused to give the founder, Choi's father Choi Hong-hi, permission to teach taekwondo in North Korea. After the ITF left, South Korea founded the WTF, which is now recognized by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) as the sport's official body, in 1973. Choi's father died from cancer in 2002 and Pyongyang named North Korean IOC member Chang Ung to head the ITF. An angry Choi established another taekwondo body in Canada, claiming it was the legitimate ITF. The 54-year-old Choi said North Korean authorities took control of the martial arts group and sent spies overseas under the name of taekwondo masters. ``We have worked together, agreeing to unify taekwondo,'' said Oh, who has developed a close relationship with Choi since 2005. ``Regardless of political issues, I want to make a world taekwondo family. ``The WTF has 60 million people and 40 million belong to the ITF. We should try to hold those separated resources together.'' -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net -- __--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The paired poomsae Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:39:51 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The poomsae you're watching are from the style of TKD, Kukki-TKD, that is by design a martial sport more than a martial art. If you're interested in viewing the forms of the martial art of TKD then you'd want to view the Pyong-Ahn or the Chang-Hon forms. Ray -- __--__-- Message: 4 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:29:01 -0400 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomsae Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I sometimes wonder what makes a poomsae worthwhile. I do believe beyond a doubt, that poomsae serve as a wonderful form of meditation, a great exercise for strength and aerobics when done in alternating tempos, very adaptable to sparring when you extrapolate pieces for fighting.? I feel that after 3rd dan, one ought to perform an original poomsae to demonstrate ones ability to contribute further to taekwondo.? My feelings of poomsae bein g worthwhile only occur when I think of sparring as an end all. Master Zishe -- __--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 19:57:38 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] FB Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 'Friend me' on Facebook, if you're so inclined... Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net -- __--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:39:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomsae To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net They're definitely worthwhile if they have the ingredients for a good product. Right now, most KMA forms are like a beautiful multilayered cake who's ingredients consist of flour and water; in other words all flash no substance. If a form has true substance, then it adds to the curiculum because you can then investigate the deeper meanings of the movements when there are some.   Jye --- On Sat, 9/13/08, zisheged@aol.com wrote: From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomsae To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 10:29 PM I sometimes wonder what makes a poomsae worthwhile. I do believe beyond a doubt, that poomsae serve as a wonderful form of meditation, a great exercise for strength and aerobics when done in alternating tempos, very adaptable to sparring when you extrapolate pieces for fighting.? I feel that after 3rd dan, one ought to perform an original poomsae to demonstrate ones ability to contribute further to taekwondo.? My feelings of poomsae bein g worthwhile only occur when I think of sparring as an end all. Master Zishe _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net -- __--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:01:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The paired poomsae To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Definitely familiar with the Chang-hon forms, but still same issues. no root, no deep stances, however power is present. The forms should contain principles that can be extracted and used in a combat situation. For instance, I always use this example. A form may have a front stance right? but how many teachers show how that stance can be used to trap the enemy's leg or jam/break the opponent's knee? What I've found is that everything should have a purpose and reason for being in a particular form other then this looks good here. We know that in a fight it's the whole body involved, yet when we perform forms we leave out what the legs can do (if not in an active role like kicking). I stress deep stances because when you train them and can hold them with no problem and can make transistions between various stances smoothly in a form then when it's time to get down in a real fight or in sprarring moving around freely seems effortless. You ever see how some people kick someone and the kicker ends up going backwards instead of the receiver of the kick? That's from poor foundational training.   Want a good sign of what I'm talking about? next class you have, have your students get into what they feel is a good stance, then shove them and see how many are easily uprooted, moved, have to step backwards etc. Just make a note of how many aren't moved. What you should see from one who has a good base is the top (torso) have move back but the base (legs/feet) shouldn't move. Try it out let me know your findings.   Jye --- On Sat, 9/13/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The paired poomsae To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Saturday, September 13, 2008, 8:39 PM The poomsae you're watching are from the style of TKD, Kukki-TKD, that is by design a martial sport more than a martial art. If you're interested in viewing the forms of the martial art of TKD then you'd want to view the Pyong-Ahn or the Chang-Hon forms. Ray _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net -- __--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:02:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Observing the patterns of the Taeguek Poomse I see a pretty concrete structure of basic fundamentals. Taeguek 1 intruduces walking stances and front stances seperately. Using very basic hand movements that are fundamental. Simple block and strike combinations using both forward and reverse punching. Very elementary to any empty hand fighting system. I think the concentration lies with stances and the use of walking and front stances.Taeguek 2 focuses on the use of the walking stance and front stance in combination together. Taeguek 3 reviews the hand techniques of both the earlier forms and introduces the back stance. Moving to the intermediate level forms we can observe that the shifting of body weight combined with twisting generates added power depending on the forward lunging movement of a front stance from a walking stance when compared to the hip twist performed during the transition from a back stance to a front stance. Although simplified, these concepts and principles should be pointed out no matter what pattern the taekwondo practitioner chooses to perform. If you observe the methodology of the Taeguek forms as they progress through the whole set, you will see that the pattern of stance changes corresponds with weight transition. In the Advanced poomse Taeguek 6-8 and all of the Black belt forms really work the stance changes (weight transitions) to the extreme. I believe that even though the Taegueks appear simple, that they focus on fundamental principles that make for a strong foundation. These principles are very important to grasp before moving on to more advanced study. In order to generate powerful techniques these principles are most necessary before getting into a more complex study of techniques. Of course we all know that without a strong foundation of how to make powerful physical movement all the techniques in the world would never be effective. I also consider that when the Taeguek poomse were introduced, the establishment was also considering how to launch TKD as a World Sport and it was necessary that anyone could learn and practice the art easily. Therefore a simple clean fundamental set of forms that developed the strong basic principles. Those who endure the fundamentals are always ready for the more advanced study at their own pace. So the Taeguek poomse appeals to the common practitioner from the beginning, not just the physically gifted athlete.   Again, this is only my own perception and I am eager to hear feedback regarding the methodology of Poomse training.     Message: 4 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:01:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: New poomsae - 1 msg To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net No offense to anyone, but KMA's have the worse forms I've ever seen. They are just movements with no intent and it seems like someone said, "ok just put this and this together, yeah that works" with very little thought on fighting application. It seems to me that they focus on trying to look impressive, but to me what's impressive is when you take a real form dissect it and find the deeper meanings for the fighting apps, then when you see the form it's just that much better. This right here that I just watched was more of the same old junk.   Jye -- __--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:33:30 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, All TKD forms are too high. A deeper stance strengthens the legs, develops impeccable balance and root, and what this actually does is makes you move even better in your higher moblie stances. They also train you mentally so you can withstand the discomfort while building up your legs. I invite you to search TKD competitions on the net. They notice what happens when a TKD peson kicks someone, in full contact clips I've seen (and from personal experience) when the TKD guy kicks someone they tend to go off balance or get pushed backwards, why? SImple poor foundation. (Clark) I think it may go deeper than most would care to admit. I started TKD around 1964, at the time we were being taught the Pyung-ahn forms (Korean version of the Shotokan forms). TKD was being taught as an ancient Korean martial art based on an ancient martial art, and any reference or connection to Japanese/Okinawan Karate was dismissed. This went to the extent of developing successive sets of forms that were designed to look different from the original forms used by the various Kwan. With each successive set of forms there was an increase in the number of kicks I think designed to show that TKD was a "kicking" art and very much different than the Japanese and Okinawan arts Yet, if you look at the various hand movements you will notice that they all bear a remarkable resemblance to the original forms. It is understandable that the Koreans would want to have TKD different from the Japanese and Okinawan arts, because of the Japanese occupation and other historical differences between the two countries. BUT, what has happened at least in my opinion is the forms have been bastardized almost beyond belief. It's almost like they have written down the various individual movements, tossed them in a blender and out comes the "new and improved" forms. (Clark) The problem for me is rather straight forward and simple. What is the basic purpose of forms? What is the intent and purpose of the forms? For me, I believe that forms were developed to pass on the essential techniques of the system. In the modern era we use TKD as a sport, but when the forms that were used by the early Kwan the martial arts were not sport or sports related but used as a means of self-defense. (the Pyung-Ahn or Pinan/Heian forms were developed by Itosu in the modern era to be taught to the school children of Okinawa.) It is said that in the old days a person would know one or possibly two forms and that would make up the full extent of their personal system of unarmed self defense. People would spend a life time practicing a single form, rather that what we do today in "learning" 20 or more forms. Personally I have been working on only one form for the past 12 or so years, yes I still remember and I do sometimes go through the other forms. But for my own individual development I have concentrated on one form, and no it's not boring I am constantly challenged and delighted to find new details of the form. (Clark)I don't believe forms were used as a means of meditation, or a method of developing strength in the legs, or anything other than a way to remember, transmit, and practice techniques that would be used in a real self defense situation. But in the modern era this has changed and forms are now being taught and practiced for a variety of reasons, and people are making up new forms to be used in competition that can highlight their individual skills in jumping, spinning, flipping, and splits. They have limited application to techniques that would be used in a true self defense situation. I feel that if TKD is going to promote itself as a kicking art then it needs to get back to the basics and build up the very weapon it's supposed to be known for. Now as far as trashing the forms; I don't do anything for no reason. Anything I say or do is for a reason, and the reason here is because there is truth to it. It seems like KMA forms want to flow like chinese forms yet be powerful like japanese forms. Nothing wrong with that, but the approach is all wrong. An outsider looking in at chinese forms may think pretty moves, real flowery, but to someone who's trained in them and understand them they understand that while the moves are pleasing to the eye every move has a purpose; an application. The beauty comes from years of practice and understanding of the art body mechanics and fluid motion. I see in alot of various KMA their idea of fluid movement is just moving the hands real fast and the hands have no purpose. (Clark) The problem as I see it is the Koreans did not have an understanding of the forms and in the rush to make TKD a "Korean" art they have completely messed up the forms. I could go on and on, but let's just say this. If you're making up a form based on looks then don't call it martial arts. Forms teach intent, purpose and build up our foundation, and if they look nice that's secondary. Now that's the forms themselves. Then you have to take into account the practitioner's expression. I've seen alot of clips where there is nooooooooooooo intent at all. To be fair let me share a clip so you can see what i'm talking about. Here is an example of a terrible form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fSFSebIJU&feature=related (Clark) I went to this site and have to agree with you - looking at the form it's completely lifeless. You mention early on in your post that the kicking techniques are weak and people lose their balance if they actually hit something. Notice in this example how when the individual kicks he comes up on the ball of his foot for the front kick. That gives some extra height to the kick but puts them in a very bad position for power transmission and when contact is made will force the individual back on the heel of their foot. Rather that allowing force to be generated up from the ground they are being pushed back to the ground and consequently off balance. Stance is too high, no root, can be uprooted easily, training only shoulder power,etc. The practitioner has no intent whatsoever. Surely not even you would think this is a good form, and that it's training the body for anything. Jye I feel like the only time I jump in on a thread is when it comes to forms, but that is an area that interests me a lot and I have been spending a lot of my time in the past years looking at the applications of forms. As I approach 60 my interest in the sport aspect of the martial arts has declined. Rick Clark -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest