Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:12:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #246 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Poomse worst or just different (Kevin Luttrell) 2. Forms, applications, etc. (Donald) 3. RE: Re:Poomse Worst or just different (Jye nigma) 4. Re: Two different points (zisheged@aol.com) 5. (no subject) (Robert Wood) 6. Re: Re: Poomse worst or just different (Ray) 7. Re: Re:Poomse Worst or just different (Ray) 8. Kukki-poomsae (Zisheged@aol.com) 9. TKD as "true" martial art (David Weller) 10. RE: Re: Poomse worst or just different (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:50:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomse worst or just different Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I completely agree with each of the responses I have read. I believe the quality of TKD and martial arts in general has declined. I also agree that the focus has become one of business and not that of martial arts. In part, due to the fact that most consumers just wont hang around and train hard. Hard training takes time, pain, lots of sweat and most times at least a little blood. Not that other types of training dont involve these things but Quality of training lies in its focus. What I am saying I guess is that the market has forced the redefining of martial arts to the consumer.   I have never been a great business man, partially because its not what I want to focus on. Partially because I have constantly been told by successful martial arts business men that in order to sell a product, it has to match the demand of the consumer.   Some, but very few, students come my way that really want to train the mind, body and spirit without the promise that they can win lots of trophies, get a black belt, perform acrobatic stunts and so on. The martial arts "market" has dictated to anyone who aspires to make a living by teaching martial arts. Its perpetuated by the media,  and martial arts bussiness men who advertise the promise of better grades, self discipline, proper ettiquette and worst of all a replacement for daycare.   Not to say I disagree with the benefits of recreational martial arts for children, but in general the Martial Way is dissappearing.  The many benefits of true martial arts training professed by the martial arts bussiness world are all very true as we all know. But what a delema that traditional martial artists who actually want to preserve the Martial Ways face. I believe that the Poomse, whichever one might choose to practice, are all beneficial with the proper focus and study. Too many focus on only one aspect of training and dont focus on the balance of all the aspects together. So many only use Poomse as a memorized pattern to get to the next level of rank and never receive the benefits of actually studying the contents of the pattern.   I consider myself fortunate because I started studying Okinawan martial arts at the age of 8. Okinawan martial arts kata practice includes bunkai, the study of application of movements. While stationed in Korea, I fell in love with Korean martial arts and have used Korean martial arts as the core system of my training. Why do I consider myself fortunate? I have always used the point of view that Poomse are a tool for perfecting technique and not just something that I had to memorize to get past a specific level. So I actually studied the movements, even though most of my Korean training never included more than a basic description of application. It has been my experience that applications of Korean forms are kept pretty basic. Even on the official website for the Kukkiwon, the decriptions are vague and open to interpretation. I dont know if it was by design, maybe because they wanted to leave it to the instructors to teach or if they had another method to study application in mind. I know that every school that I have visited has had different one steps or application drills. There arent a standard set of one steps required.   Anyway, my point is that all Poomse are valuable with the proper focus. I believe that the best martial artists have a stronger focus that is balanced on developing himself to his fullest potential first, and the achievements in competition happen to be a product of his training. Rather than the focus completely on competition. Master Kevin Luttrell °ÅvÀÎ ÁÖµÈluttrell Director ÁöµµÀÚ The Martial Artist Foundation ±º ¿¹¼ú°¡ ±âÃÊ TaeKwonDo Advantage Springfield, Mo.   Visit The Martial Artist Foundation ¹æ¹® °ü¸® À¥»çÀÌÆ® Official Website: www.sportTKD.com     --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Donald" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:30:25 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms, applications, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have followed the thread on forms, their application, etc. IMVHO (limited to the Chang Hon forms} the 'applications' are there. Becoming proficient in the body mechanics is at least equal to learning 'the inner applications' of a form - sort of the chicken-or-the-egg. Knowing the application of a movement may aid the execution of it. But as Master Clark pointed out, it takes years to finesse all the details of a form and discover all its applications. George Dillman preaches this also. Beginning students learn forms by rote with little or no conception of the application of the movements. That is where practice [including time-in-rank], competent instruction, and thinking about what you are doing [ ie forms as 'moving meditation'] come together as the student learns martial applications. Just my 2 cents - YMMV. pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:34:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We seem to agree on many points with the exception of purpose of forms training. Now you believe they were formed to transmit a martial system (that's a very simplified summary) and I agree with that, but also we have to remember, that conditioning is a vital part of any MA system. What good is learning kicking methods if your kicking tool is weak? We have to build up the body and to me forms do that with deep stances.   here's something that will make you think....how is it that forms are made up iun different systems yet still have martial apps and TKD's traditional ones don't seem to have apps outside of very very basic stuff? What causes that? lack of understanding of the art? lack of experience fighting? I don't know.   Jye --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Rick Clark wrote: From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 8:33 AM Hi, All TKD forms are too high. A deeper stance strengthens the legs, develops impeccable balance and root, and what this actually does is makes you move even better in your higher moblie stances. They also train you mentally so you can withstand the discomfort while building up your legs. I invite you to search TKD competitions on the net. They notice what happens when a TKD peson kicks someone, in full contact clips I've seen (and from personal experience) when the TKD guy kicks someone they tend to go off balance or get pushed backwards, why? SImple poor foundation. (Clark) I think it may go deeper than most would care to admit. I started TKD around 1964, at the time we were being taught the Pyung-ahn forms (Korean version of the Shotokan forms). TKD was being taught as an ancient Korean martial art based on an ancient martial art, and any reference or connection to Japanese/Okinawan Karate was dismissed. This went to the extent of developing successive sets of forms that were designed to look different from the original forms used by the various Kwan. With each successive set of forms there was an increase in the number of kicks I think designed to show that TKD was a "kicking" art and very much different than the Japanese and Okinawan arts Yet, if you look at the various hand movements you will notice that they all bear a remarkable resemblance to the original forms. It is understandable that the Koreans would want to have TKD different from the Japanese and Okinawan arts, because of the Japanese occupation and other historical differences between the two countries. BUT, what has happened at least in my opinion is the forms have been bastardized almost beyond belief. It's almost like they have written down the various individual movements, tossed them in a blender and out comes the "new and improved" forms. (Clark) The problem for me is rather straight forward and simple. What is the basic purpose of forms? What is the intent and purpose of the forms? For me, I believe that forms were developed to pass on the essential techniques of the system. In the modern era we use TKD as a sport, but when the forms that were used by the early Kwan the martial arts were not sport or sports related but used as a means of self-defense. (the Pyung-Ahn or Pinan/Heian forms were developed by Itosu in the modern era to be taught to the school children of Okinawa.) It is said that in the old days a person would know one or possibly two forms and that would make up the full extent of their personal system of unarmed self defense. People would spend a life time practicing a single form, rather that what we do today in "learning" 20 or more forms. Personally I have been working on only one form for the past 12 or so years, yes I still remember and I do sometimes go through the other forms. But for my own individual development I have concentrated on one form, and no it's not boring I am constantly challenged and delighted to find new details of the form. (Clark)I don't believe forms were used as a means of meditation, or a method of developing strength in the legs, or anything other than a way to remember, transmit, and practice techniques that would be used in a real self defense situation. But in the modern era this has changed and forms are now being taught and practiced for a variety of reasons, and people are making up new forms to be used in competition that can highlight their individual skills in jumping, spinning, flipping, and splits. They have limited application to techniques that would be used in a true self defense situation. I feel that if TKD is going to promote itself as a kicking art then it needs to get back to the basics and build up the very weapon it's supposed to be known for. Now as far as trashing the forms; I don't do anything for no reason. Anything I say or do is for a reason, and the reason here is because there is truth to it. It seems like KMA forms want to flow like chinese forms yet be powerful like japanese forms. Nothing wrong with that, but the approach is all wrong. An outsider looking in at chinese forms may think pretty moves, real flowery, but to someone who's trained in them and understand them they understand that while the moves are pleasing to the eye every move has a purpose; an application. The beauty comes from years of practice and understanding of the art body mechanics and fluid motion. I see in alot of various KMA their idea of fluid movement is just moving the hands real fast and the hands have no purpose. (Clark) The problem as I see it is the Koreans did not have an understanding of the forms and in the rush to make TKD a "Korean" art they have completely messed up the forms. I could go on and on, but let's just say this. If you're making up a form based on looks then don't call it martial arts. Forms teach intent, purpose and build up our foundation, and if they look nice that's secondary. Now that's the forms themselves. Then you have to take into account the practitioner's expression. I've seen alot of clips where there is nooooooooooooo intent at all. To be fair let me share a clip so you can see what i'm talking about. Here is an example of a terrible form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fSFSebIJU&feature=related (Clark) I went to this site and have to agree with you - looking at the form it's completely lifeless. You mention early on in your post that the kicking techniques are weak and people lose their balance if they actually hit something. Notice in this example how when the individual kicks he comes up on the ball of his foot for the front kick. That gives some extra height to the kick but puts them in a very bad position for power transmission and when contact is made will force the individual back on the heel of their foot. Rather that allowing force to be generated up from the ground they are being pushed back to the ground and consequently off balance. Stance is too high, no root, can be uprooted easily, training only shoulder power,etc. The practitioner has no intent whatsoever. Surely not even you would think this is a good form, and that it's training the body for anything. Jye I feel like the only time I jump in on a thread is when it comes to forms, but that is an area that interests me a lot and I have been spending a lot of my time in the past years looking at the applications of forms. As I approach 60 my interest in the sport aspect of the martial arts has declined. Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 4 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:17:44 -0400 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Two different points Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Jye and others are making, sad to say, a good point. Forms are performed poorly as I have seen them of late. Actually they have been poor for quite some time. Recently, I was roundly criticized for failing two students on their promotion test from yellow to orange belt. I said,"Enough is enough!"? It was THAT bad. But there are two different points here. The first was that the forms themselves were lacking because of high stance, lack of hip snap, lack of purpose. The other arguement was on their execution. My two cents here...the forms themselves suit me fine...HOWEVER I also love the Kyokushin forms, MooDukKwan forms as well as the Kung Fu forms all for different reasons. Now as to their execution...yes my brothers and sisters...they are performed largely in a sloppy, lackedasical fashion with no dedication or insight. The forms are taught poorly, without historical reference and without ki application.? When you have a sport as large as kukki-TKD, it has to be grown by making concessions. This is very sad.? It is far better to either have traditional instruction or to go to a smaller martial art that is not so interested in money and competition.? One day soon, Kukki and ITF will merge. Will that make the forms even worse? I feel it will.? One more point, the physical training I've seen in most martial arts is pathetic. There is practically no aerobics, no weight training..in short no conditioning.? Discussing this here is a good beginning. Master Zishe --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Robert Wood To: Dojang Digest Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:14:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was catching up on my emails and reading through my DD listings. I practice TKD. My 1st issue w/ Jye’s posting is generalizing. The TKD I study comes out of the Kong Soo Do tradition; deep stances, big on hand techniques (ie punching, targeting, and proper joint alignment). As to forms (patterns/kata), we use the Palgue forms. In the forms we strive for a stance that is shoulder with wide and shoulder with and half deep. In sparring we score the same for a punch to the chest and a roundhouse kick to the head. The contact we use in sparring is considered t be heavy; for the point to be valid you must either move your opponent or stop his/her forward momentum. The only thing I ask is that when criticizing or pointing out short coming in an art we be more specific; WTF; ATA; Combat Hapkido; International Hapkido Federation; Tang Soo Doo; Hwarangdo, etc. in His service, Rob Wood Knowing is not enough, you must apply...Willing is not enough, you must do. -- Bruce LeeI am careful not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business -- Michael J. Fox _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomse worst or just different Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:23:45 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Remember to trim your posts, else another screw-up. Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net On Sep 14, 2008, at 10:16 PM, Kevin Luttrell wrote: > I completely understand your perception, and I agree with most of your > statements [snip] --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:22:47 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Remember to trim/truncate your posts to the list else you end up with a screw-up like your previous email. Thanks. Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net On Sep 15, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Jye nigma wrote: > We seem to agree on many points with the exception of purpose of forms > training. [snip] --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Zisheged@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:31:59 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One more complication. As we all know, TKD which is a descendant of Shotokan was also a combination ( a dilution if you will) of all the Kwans forms to create a unified martial art. Many components of the poomsae hail from Shotokan, but there is also Taeguk Sa Jan which is Chinese in origin. Unity had it's price for sure. Kukki poomsae are a bit of a hodge podge but then again it harkens back to all the styles that made it possible. I compare Kukki TKD to the English language. Many flaws in structure, a loose conglomeration...but... who could deny the popularity?! It's Kukki-TKD that has reached millions and given them a flavor of martial arts and some conditioning. I certainly agree it should grow but again it's been a huge gift. Master Zishe **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) --__--__-- Message: 9 From: David Weller Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:48:19 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD as "true" martial art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, Not sure what you're looking at when you say TKD is not a "true" martial art, but my teacher works on each of these principles as a regular part of our training. I've spent many many hours in a forward stance (deep stance), horse riding stance, etc .. I have covered many miles of the Dojang floor doing every kick in the syllabus from a forward (deep) stance. Talk about building up a good "root". I watched in terror as my 200+ LB instructor literally walked up the back leg of my child as he was in a forward stance to assure he had a good root. (Please, don't start the "oh my, you can't do that to a child" nonsense) Guess what, that little 6 year old must have had pretty a good stance as the instructor did not crush him!! I've been on the receiving end of many a powerful shove from the side while in deep stances (or those "too high" walking stances) to make sure I understood balance, strength and centering. (I won't even go into the whole "TKD doesn't use hands" argument. I have permanent bruises on my ribs from my instructor's well placed lung punches that prove otherwise. He is absolutely insistent that we use our hands. For striking and blocking.) I suspect this is one reason my Teacher, and his teacher, still insists on teaching both Palgwe and Taeguek Poomsae. I might say Chinese forms (which I assume you refer to as being "superior") look like a bunch of flowery crappola with absolutely no application or sense of an opponent in the performance. But, you know what, I'm betting I'd be completely wrong about that since I do not TRAIN in that style. If I did, I can bet dollars to donuts that I would understand the application and purpose of the forms, provided I had a decent instructor. Now, if you want to denigrate a particular school, or instructor, that is one thing, but to denigrate an entire martial art based on looking at a few youtube videos is a little over the top. What I'm saying is. I'd rather see you say, "Dave, you truly suck at Poomsae." than see you say, "This whole art sucks" because one practitioner did not live up to your expectations. Just my .0002 cents, adjusted for inflation. dave weller On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:24 AM, the_dojang- request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > My problem with TKD is if it's being promoted as a true martial art > then it > needs to include all those elements of true martial arts; body > conditioning, > forms that train the foundation (deeper stances) sensitivity work, and > definitely more hand work. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:37:57 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomse worst or just different To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Kevin, From: Kevin Luttrell [mailto:sabum@sbcglobal.net] >I completely understand your perception, and I agree with most of your >statements. But with the Taeguek poomse, I think you have to look at the >systematic principle behind the complete set of poomse. Taeguk Il jang as >represented by the utube video that you left the link for is from the Kukkiwon >website. When observing this poomse alone, you can see the focus on learning >to use walking stances on the left and right sides of the pattern and front >stances up and down the middle. Ok, let's say that Taeguek Il jang is to learn to use a stance. What is the purpose of the stance? When is the stance used in real life? Is it use in sparring with the accompanying hand movements? Is it used for self-defense? How is it used? In psychology there is a basic concept that you revert previously learned behavior in moments of stress - so what behavior, through training, do you wish to extinguish and replace with new behavior exemplified in Taeguek Il jang? Rick Clark --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest