Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 02:48:22 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #247 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re:Poomse Worst or just different (Rick Clark) 2. Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. (Zisheged@aol.com) 3. Pan Am Championships Squad Named (The_Dojang) 4. Re: Re: Poomse worst or just different (Thomas Gordon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:00:19 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jye, From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] >We seem to agree on many points with the exception of purpose of forms > training. Now you believe they were formed to transmit a martial system >(that's a very simplified summary) and I agree with that, Absolutely, I can see no other purpose for them. Years ago we did not have photographs, literacy was low, and the number of students any one instructor would be few by today's standard. Forms in my opinion offered a way to remember, practice, and teach techniques in a systematic manner. >but also we have to >remember, that conditioning is a vital part of any MA system. What good is >learning kicking methods if your kicking tool is weak? We have to build up the >body and to me forms do that with deep stances. I live in an area where there are a lot of Amish, and one thing I have noticed is that you don't see fat Amish. Everyone I have seen appears to be fit and they work hard. They don't go to the gym to work out, they don't sit around watching TV, or for that matter - like me now sitting in front of a computer. I suspect years ago when people actually worked there was not much need to build up their legs, because they walked where they had to go. When they had to carry some heavy load they moved it with brute force. So I suspect 200 years ago a LA Fitness would not have signed up many people. >here's something that will make you think....how is it that forms are made up >iun different systems yet still have martial apps and TKD's traditional ones >don't seem to have apps outside of very very basic stuff? What causes that? >lack of understanding of the art? lack of experience fighting? I don't know. This does not make me think in the least, well perhaps how to say this in a polite way. But I truly believe that the Korean "masters" have no idea of applications from the forms they learned from the Japanese pre WWII. Koreans were seen to have very low social standing, and I doubt that if a Japanese or Okinawan instructor had really good information to transmit they would teach a Korean. Heck I can remember when Black Belt magazine wrote about Wong Ark Yue opening his Kwoon to teach non-Chinese - and that was in the early 60's! (probably between 1962- 66) Not to mention the Korean "masters" who opened the first Kwan in Korea had limited training and were of relatively low rank in the system. Choi Hong Hi's rank varies between 1st and 2nd dan in Shotokan. Won Kuk Lee was a 3rd if memory serves me right. And I have no idea about the others but I am sure they were of approximately the same rank. This takes us to a couple of points then - how much would you teach someone who is low dan rank? Then How much would you teach a Korean (if you were Japanese or Okinawan) of low dan rank? The Korean "masters" had practiced the martial arts for a limited period of time, there are many on this list with a lot more time on the floor than they had before they opened the various Kwan. Jye Rick Clark --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Rick Clark wrote: From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re:Poomse Worst or just different To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 8:33 AM Hi, All TKD forms are too high. A deeper stance strengthens the legs, develops impeccable balance and root, and what this actually does is makes you move even better in your higher moblie stances. They also train you mentally so you can withstand the discomfort while building up your legs. I invite you to search TKD competitions on the net. They notice what happens when a TKD peson kicks someone, in full contact clips I've seen (and from personal experience) when the TKD guy kicks someone they tend to go off balance or get pushed backwards, why? SImple poor foundation. (Clark) I think it may go deeper than most would care to admit. I started TKD around 1964, at the time we were being taught the Pyung-ahn forms (Korean version of the Shotokan forms). TKD was being taught as an ancient Korean martial art based on an ancient martial art, and any reference or connection to Japanese/Okinawan Karate was dismissed. This went to the extent of developing successive sets of forms that were designed to look different from the original forms used by the various Kwan. With each successive set of forms there was an increase in the number of kicks I think designed to show that TKD was a "kicking" art and very much different than the Japanese and Okinawan arts Yet, if you look at the various hand movements you will notice that they all bear a remarkable resemblance to the original forms. It is understandable that the Koreans would want to have TKD different from the Japanese and Okinawan arts, because of the Japanese occupation and other historical differences between the two countries. BUT, what has happened at least in my opinion is the forms have been bastardized almost beyond belief. It's almost like they have written down the various individual movements, tossed them in a blender and out comes the "new and improved" forms. (Clark) The problem for me is rather straight forward and simple. What is the basic purpose of forms? What is the intent and purpose of the forms? For me, I believe that forms were developed to pass on the essential techniques of the system. In the modern era we use TKD as a sport, but when the forms that were used by the early Kwan the martial arts were not sport or sports related but used as a means of self-defense. (the Pyung-Ahn or Pinan/Heian forms were developed by Itosu in the modern era to be taught to the school children of Okinawa.) It is said that in the old days a person would know one or possibly two forms and that would make up the full extent of their personal system of unarmed self defense. People would spend a life time practicing a single form, rather that what we do today in "learning" 20 or more forms. Personally I have been working on only one form for the past 12 or so years, yes I still remember and I do sometimes go through the other forms. But for my own individual development I have concentrated on one form, and no it's not boring I am constantly challenged and delighted to find new details of the form. (Clark)I don't believe forms were used as a means of meditation, or a method of developing strength in the legs, or anything other than a way to remember, transmit, and practice techniques that would be used in a real self defense situation. But in the modern era this has changed and forms are now being taught and practiced for a variety of reasons, and people are making up new forms to be used in competition that can highlight their individual skills in jumping, spinning, flipping, and splits. They have limited application to techniques that would be used in a true self defense situation. I feel that if TKD is going to promote itself as a kicking art then it needs to get back to the basics and build up the very weapon it's supposed to be known for. Now as far as trashing the forms; I don't do anything for no reason. Anything I say or do is for a reason, and the reason here is because there is truth to it. It seems like KMA forms want to flow like chinese forms yet be powerful like japanese forms. Nothing wrong with that, but the approach is all wrong. An outsider looking in at chinese forms may think pretty moves, real flowery, but to someone who's trained in them and understand them they understand that while the moves are pleasing to the eye every move has a purpose; an application. The beauty comes from years of practice and understanding of the art body mechanics and fluid motion. I see in alot of various KMA their idea of fluid movement is just moving the hands real fast and the hands have no purpose. (Clark) The problem as I see it is the Koreans did not have an understanding of the forms and in the rush to make TKD a "Korean" art they have completely messed up the forms. I could go on and on, but let's just say this. If you're making up a form based on looks then don't call it martial arts. Forms teach intent, purpose and build up our foundation, and if they look nice that's secondary. Now that's the forms themselves. Then you have to take into account the practitioner's expression. I've seen alot of clips where there is nooooooooooooo intent at all. To be fair let me share a clip so you can see what i'm talking about. Here is an example of a terrible form: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fSFSebIJU&feature=related (Clark) I went to this site and have to agree with you - looking at the form it's completely lifeless. You mention early on in your post that the kicking techniques are weak and people lose their balance if they actually hit something. Notice in this example how when the individual kicks he comes up on the ball of his foot for the front kick. That gives some extra height to the kick but puts them in a very bad position for power transmission and when contact is made will force the individual back on the heel of their foot. Rather that allowing force to be generated up from the ground they are being pushed back to the ground and consequently off balance. Stance is too high, no root, can be uprooted easily, training only shoulder power,etc. The practitioner has no intent whatsoever. Surely not even you would think this is a good form, and that it's training the body for anything. Jye I feel like the only time I jump in on a thread is when it comes to forms, but that is an area that interests me a lot and I have been spending a lot of my time in the past years looking at the applications of forms. As I approach 60 my interest in the sport aspect of the martial arts has declined. Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Zisheged@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:28:14 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There will always be mediocrity, greatness, new ideas and old values in every human endeavor. I don't practice tai chi as it's too slow moving for "ME" not in its essence. I don't practice Jiu Jitsu as at 59 I don't need my joints injured. That's my choice not an indictment of Jiu Jitsu. My point is that TKD is not for everyone for sure, but No one can dispute it's popularity. Does anyone think that a vigorous and tough art such as Kyokyshin Kai could have reached millions? Of course not. TKD is the art of the masses. If anyone wants something tougher, more authentic or more anything...do it. I don't like beets but others do so I eat broccoli. Should I banish beets??? My colleagues are so correct. So few students come to us with true martial spirit. So be it. Even tae Bo has its place. I am so fortunate to have my school in a community center with a pool and large weight room. I require students to spar in the pool and do poomsae there. I require students to join me for weight training at least twice a week or they do not get promoted. I have about 50 students as many feel this is too rough. No problem as they can go elsewhere. If other schools don't emphasize that it's sad but at least they are training somewhat. Even the lightweight schools are helping to trim down the obese kids we have today. If you are a full time Sabunim with no other income, you will have to make your curriculum user friendly or starve. Master Zeishe **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:16:32 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Pan Am Championships Squad Named Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pan Am Championships Squad Named Bill Kellick - USA Taekwondo September 14, 2008 The 16-member team that will represent the United States at the 2008 Pan American Taekwondo Championships was announced Sunday at the conclusion of the selection camp held Sept. 10-14 at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, Colo. The squad will compete at the Pan Am Championships in Caguas, Puerto Rico, October 3-5. "This was an incredible selection camp", said U.S. National Team Coach Juan Moreno. "The athletes all came in focused and committed to making this team. The level of intensity and competition was one of the best that I have ever seen at a camp. The decision to select the team was extremely tough, but the committee literally spent 4-5 hours a day deliberating on who would be the potential team members." A total of 58 athletes attended the selection camp. The 16-member Pan Am Championships Team will be comprised of: Male Finweight: Charles "Arnell" Smith (Ft. Washington, Md.) Male Flyweight: James Howe (San Ramon, Calif.) Male Bantamweight: Bernard Posey (Greensboro, N.C.) Male Featherweight: Steven Lin (Chatham, N.J.) Male Lightweight: David Bartlett (Colorado Springs, Colo.) Male Welterweight: Rudford Hamon (Miami, Fla.) Male Middleweight: Jayson Grant (Worcester, Mass.) Male Heavyweight: Brett Schuschereba (Derry, N.H.) Female Finweight: Alexis Martinez (Pembroke Pines, Fla.) Female Flyweight: Charlotte Craig (Murietta, Calif.) Female Bantamweight: Eleni Koutsilianos (Astoria, N.Y.) Female Featherweight: Aziza Chambers (Springfield, Ohio) Female Lightweight: Whitney Daniel (Virginia Beach, Va.) Female Welterweight: Paige McPherson (Sturgis, S.D.) Female Middleweight: Dalia Avivi (Miami, Fla.) Female Heavyweight: Lauren Cahoon (Jacksonville, Fla.) Weight Division Summaries: Finweight Charles Smith, 23, is a two-time national champion (2003 & 2008) and a member of the 2004 Pan Am Championships Team and 2004 National Team. He also was the 2005 collegiate champion and won a bronze medal at the 2005 World University Games. Alexis Martinez, 16, is a two-time senior national champion, winning titles in 2007 & 2008. Flyweight James Howe, 21, is a two-time national champion (2007 & 2008) as well as a 2008 U.S. Open gold medalist and 2006 collegiate champion. Charlotte Craig, 17, is a 2008 Olympian, reaching the quarterfinals of the women's Olympic flyweight division in Beijing. She won bronze medals at the 2007 senior world championships and the 2006 junior world championships, and was a senior national champion in 2005 and won gold at the 2005 Pan American Junior Championships. Bantamweight Bernard Posey, 18, is a two-time medalist at the Pan American Junior Championships, winning gold in 2007 and bronze in 2005. He is also a two-time U.S. junior champion in 2005 & 2006. Eleni Koutsilianos, 21, is a five-time U.S. National Team member and won gold at the last Pan American Championships in 2006. She is also a three time national champion (2003, 2004 & 2005) and three-time U.S. Open gold medalist (2004, 2005 & 2006). Featherweight Steven Lin, 21, is a two-time national champion, winning titles in 2006 & 2008. Aziza Chambers, 19, was the 2007 collegiate champion and a member of the 2008 Collegiate World Championships Team. She also captured a bronze medal at the 2008 U.S. National Championships. Lightweight David Bartlett, 28, won the 2008 World Military Championships and is a four-time U.S. national champion (1999, 2002, 2003 & 2006). Whitney Daniel, 17, was a silver medalist at the 2008 World Junior Championships. She also won silver at the 2008 U.S. National Championships and bronze at the 2007 U.S. National Championships. Welterweight Rudford Hamon, 26, is a two-time national champion (2005 & 2007). He won a silver medal at the last Pan Am Championships in 2006 and was the 2005 collegiate champion. Paige McPherson, 17, is a three-time senior national champion (2006, 2007 & 2008), a Pan Am Junior gold medalist in 2007, U.S. Open gold medalist in 2008 and Junior Olympic champion in 2007. Middleweight Jayson Grant, 19, is the 2006 senior national champion and 2008 collegiate national champion. Dalia Avivi, 22, won gold medals at the 2008 collegiate championship and 2008 U.S. Open. She was also a member of the 2007 U.S. Senior National Team. Heavyweight Brett Schuschereba, 23, is a three-time medalist at the U.S. National Championships, winning gold in 2006, silver in 2008 and bronze in 2007. Lauren Cahoon, 23, is a two-time Senior National Team member (2005 & 2006), two-time collegiate champion (2003 & 2008), 2008 U.S. Open gold medalist and 2003 senior national champion. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomse worst or just different From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Patterns are simply a tool of many available tools. Every martial art I’ve ever done uses patterns to some degree. Some instructors claim their art doesn’t but if you break down to a fundamental level, there are "steps" to joint locks, MMA movements, Judo applications, BJJ techniques, etc. Anyone doubting that should write down instructions on a joint lock, throw, or "how to pass the guard." To say an art as diverse as Taekwondo is useless is rather silly. Yes, I’ve seen some TKD that was little more than dance and I’ve seen some instructors who had no business leading a class. I've also seen TKD that was nothing less than "Wow!" The TKD I do today (ITF) is very different that the TKD I did 10-15 years ago (ATA). The TKD at the Olympics (KKW/WTF) doesn’t much resemble either of the two styles of TKD I’ve done. With that said, we have a TKD school here in our town that is pretty sad display of martial arts. So bad that I considered advertising that we teach KwanTaeSool instead of TaeKwonDo. Instead I opted for "Martial Arts" on our sign out front and generally don’t get into a discussion of "what art" with the average Joe looking for a place to train in martial arts. At the end of the day, most of them really don't care...unless they are looking for an MMA or BJJ school. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest