Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:22:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #248 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Poomse worst or just different (Kevin Luttrell) 2. Re: TKD (zisheged@aol.com) 3. RE: Re: TKD (Rick Clark) 4. TKD team at UB (Ray) 5. RE: Re: Poomse worst or just different (Rick Clark) 6. RE: Re: TKD (michael tomlinson) 7. RE: Back from Jackson (J R Hilland) 8. Re: RE: Back from Jackson (Ray) 9. TKD Article (Thomas Gordon) 10. RE: Kukki-poomsae (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:25:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomse worst or just different Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Master Clark,   I can only tell you my method for using this beginner form. In the first 4 movements of taeguek Il jang, we practice a walking stance turning and perform a low section block, step two remains a walking stance and perform a forward punch. I believe that one possible reason for beginning with a walking stance is because the unexperienced practitioner is most comfortable in this position as he is most likely to have used it more than anything else at this point in his experience. So it is used because its natural for the beginner and applying an incline weight transition between two walking stances to apply a forward punch effectively with a 50% weight shift. I am considering that the beginner I am teaching this poomse has only performed a limited amount of forward punching while turning and stepping forward. Maybe he has done lots of line drills in a straight line but not turn and step movements like we find in Taeguek Il jang. So your answer would be how to apply a 50% weight transition while performing a turning low block and moving immediately to a front punch. I know this seems awful elementary but , thats what were studying. Simple, gundamental applications of weight transition, combined with hip twisting (turning) and forward movement.  We also study Front stance in movements 5 and 6, turning from a walking stance position transitioning to a front stance position while twisting the hips, move 6 is the reverse punch application from a stationary front stance position. The practitioner repeats this pattern left and right sides until the very last 2 movements where we see the introduction of  turning into a front stance and lunging forward front stance while applying your lunging to a forward punch. Personally, in my classes we use the Poomse to study this information in a variety of different ways. The poomse is like a living dictionary of information to study and use in a variety of different ways to actually study the art.  We perform the combinations against oncoming attacks using 2 or more partners. We break the combinations down into one step style movements to work with a partner. Sometimes we do the form or the one step style combinations with striking targets. I have even mounted a wavemaster on wheels so that the "attackers" weight would move more like body weight might move when struck with power. (of course the wavemaster is controlled by a partner to provide a fair amount of resistance.) So thats the best way that I can describe my method of beginner forms study and the fundamental that I focus on while using that specific poomse as a tool.   Eager to hear your feedback,     Master Kevin Luttrell °ÅvÀÎ ÁÖµÈluttrell Director ÁöµµÀÚ The Martial Artist Foundation ±º ¿¹¼ú°¡ ±âÃÊ TaeKwonDo Advantage Springfield, Mo.   Visit The Martial Artist Foundation ¹æ¹® °ü¸® À¥»çÀÌÆ® Official Website: www.sportTKD.com   Message: 10 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:37:57 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomse worst or just different To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Kevin, From: Kevin Luttrell [mailto:sabum@sbcglobal.net] >I completely understand your perception, and I agree with most of your >statements. But with the Taeguek poomse, I think you have to look at the >systematic principle behind the complete set of poomse. Taeguk Il jang as >represented by the utube video that you left the link for is from the Kukkiwon >website. When observing this poomse alone, you can see the focus on learning >to use walking stances on the left and right sides of the pattern and front >stances up and down the middle. Ok, let's say that Taeguek Il jang is to learn to use a stance. What is the purpose of the stance? When is the stance used in real life? Is it use in sparring with the accompanying hand movements? Is it used for self-defense? How is it used? In psychology there is a basic concept that you revert previously learned behavior in moments of stress - so what behavior, through training, do you wish to extinguish and replace with new behavior exemplified in Taeguek Il jang? Rick Clark -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest --__--__-- Message: 2 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:42:58 -0400 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now that we've all taken shots at TKD I want to ask this. How many Kalikapatu (Indian) martial arts schools are in your neighborhood? How many Sambo (Russian) schools? Any KukSoolKwan?? Well...maybe TKD survived as the most appealing to the masses??? Even though it falls short of everyones wishes. Let's not criticize art deco buildings because they don't have gargoyles.? TKD is less in many respects than other martial arts. On the other hand, which other art brings in as many students and brings whatever level of physical fitness to so many??? Yes, I agree we need low stances but comparisons don't really mean much.? Ever wonder why Capoiera isn't in the Olympics? Master Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:24:33 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, > From: zisheged@aol.com [mailto:zisheged@aol.com] > Now that we've all taken shots at TKD I want to ask this. [Rick Clark] I don't want to be seen as taking shots at TKD - I value my training in TKD and consider it one of my base arts. BUT - what I see as TKD is not seen as TKD in the modern form. [Rick Clark] Personally I wonder why TKD is in the Olympics. Before Judo became an Olympic sport it was something more than just a sport. Once it became an "Olympic sport" I personally think it lost something of it's true value. The "Do" arts to me are about personal enlightenment and personal development. The aspect of a "sport" at least in my opinion goes against this part I hold to be very important. I dislike tournaments deeply, I have seen too many negative things jump into tournaments. High rank instructors acting like idiots, politics, people faking injury, people trying to cause injury to their opponent. For what? Some plastic and cheap metal and the right to say they are the champion of the universe in sparring or forms. I would not have a problem if they called what they do in the Olympics Tae Kwon - but to tack Do onto the name? Well that just does not seem to fit the bill for me. > > > Master Zeishe Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:30:45 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD team at UB Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net News & Events Internationally famed TaeKwonDo team to perform at University of Bridgeport, CT A Kukkiwon team from the world’s TaeKwonDo headquarters in Seoul will present a present a demonstration of the martial art at the University of Bridgeport on Sept. 24 from 7 to 8:30 p.m. in the Mertens Theater of the Arnold Bernhard Center for the Arts and Humanities. The demonstration is open to the general public and all in the martial arts community. The group, called the National Kukkiwon Demonstration Team, is the most prestigious and highly regarded in the TaeKwonDo world. Its 20 members make up the official touring team that introduces the essence of the traditional form of the martial arts. Members of the Korean community in America and the Cultural Section of the Korean Consulate in New York brought the team to the United States as part of the celebration of a Korean’s Sept. 14 national holiday, Harvest Moon Day (Chuseok). In addition to coming to UB, which is world-known for its accredited bachelor’s degree program in the martial arts, the team is performing in New York and New Jersey locations. For tickets, invitations and more details, contact the university’s International College at (203) 576-4966. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:47:25 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Poomse worst or just different To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Kevin, > From: Kevin Luttrell [mailto:sabum@sbcglobal.net] > Hello Master Clark, [Rick Clark] Please it's simply Rick. > beginner I am teaching this poomse has only performed a limited amount > of > forward punching while turning and stepping forward. Maybe he has done > lots of > line drills in a straight line but not turn and step movements like we > find in > Taeguek Il jang. So your answer would be how > to apply a 50% weight transition while performing a turning low block > and > moving immediately to a front punch. I know this seems awful elementary > but , > thats what were studying. Simple, gundamental applications of weight > transition, combined with hip twisting (turning) and forward movement. [Rick Clark] Ok - is there a better way to teach that? Why is it important to use a form to teach weight transition and turning? When is this used? Do you see people doing this in sparing or self-defense? I really want you to think about this, I am not trying to be a jerk - believe me you would know without a doubt when that happens :-) But do we really need to teach someone how to walk and transition their weight? Why pull your hand back to your waist when you punch? When in sparing do you see someone step and punch at the same time or turn 90 degrees, or turn their back on someone and move in a completely different direction? Personally, in my classes we use the Poomse to study > this > information in a variety of different ways. The poomse is like a living > dictionary of information to study and use in a variety of different > ways > to actually study the art. [Rick Clark] Here we have no disagreement - I do see forms as you say a dictionary of information. In the old days, your form was the style of martial art you practiced. The form gave you the entire system, and people did not learn 20 or 30 or even more forms. They were closely guarded and your fighting system was reflected in the forms that you practiced. I guess this sort of leads me to my main criticism of modern TKD, the forms have been developed in successive waves since 1945. And I believe the development has been to make TKD look more "Korean" and try to shroud TKD in a false history of ancient roots. From my perspective the forms of TKD that began to learn in the early 60's never had any connection to sparing or self-defense. They were simply something you did to make the next grade. I am confident that some of the highest ranked instructors had only a basic view of applications of the forms and were simply never taught. So how could they teach that to their students, and if something is not taught then there is no value to what they were taught. So changes could be made, and were. > We perform the combinations against oncoming attacks using 2 or more > partners. We break the combinations down into one step style movements > to work > with a partner. Sometimes we do the form or the one step style > combinations > with striking targets. I have even mounted a wavemaster on wheels so > that the > "attackers" weight would move more like body weight might move when > struck > with power. (of course the wavemaster is controlled by a partner to > provide a > fair amount of resistance.) > So thats the best way that I can describe my method of beginner forms > study > and the fundamental that I focus on while using that specific poomse as > a > tool. > > Eager to hear your feedback, [Rick Clark] I hope I don't come over too rude - but I truly hope people stop and think about forms. Because I strongly feel they (forms) are the core of any martial art. Forms to me are the central hub from which my entire outlook on the martial arts develops. > > Master Kevin Luttrell Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 6 From: michael tomlinson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:55:53 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On the subject of doing more low stances during forms....welp...I don't practice forms so I can't judge anyone on that one..but I've noticed IMHO that you can't move totally in low stances...in HKD it is that ability to transition very very fast from high stances to low stances and back and forth...honestly if someone stays totally in low stances they have a stong base but are much slower in their movements...on the other side of the coin if you stay in high stances you are faster but weaker in your base...being able to snap from one stance to the next is optimal in my opinion....if you want to see this theory in it's utmost function watch some olympic freestyle wrestling matches...they can go from up to down in a nanosecond..and never lose their balanceMichael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550 F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:05:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Back from Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray we missed you this time in Jackson. The Hilton was a fantastic hotel with a live band in the bar nightly. Obviously the Houston group did not make it although the northern Texas folks did. Even with Ike, the turnout at the event was really good. Everyone had a great time. The DD's own Wayne Watkins obtained his hapkido 5th dan after all these years from GM West. As he was born in the 1800's this was a great accomplishment (sorry Wayne had to do it). JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Back from Jackson Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:08:36 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Oh Oh Oh... Congrats to Wayne on his Oh Dan! Ray On Sep 16, 2008, at 8:05 AM, J R Hilland wrote: > Ray we missed you this time in Jackson. The Hilton was a fantastic > hotel > with a live band in the bar nightly. Obviously the Houston group did > not > make it although the northern Texas folks did. Even with Ike, the > turnout at > the event was really good. Everyone had a great time. The DD's own > Wayne > Watkins obtained his hapkido 5th dan after all these years from GM > West. As > he was born in the 1800's this was a great accomplishment (sorry > Wayne had > to do it). JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:06:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Article Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net An interesting read: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080909/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_taekwondo_korea?hj N.Korea used taekwondo group to plot murder Tue Sep 9, 1:41 AM ET SEOUL (Reuters) - North Korea infiltrated an international taekwondo group, using it as a front to send out spies and plot the killing of a South Korean president who ruled for much of the 1980s, newspapers said on Tuesday. The Korea Times quoted Choi Jung-hwa, son of the late Choi Hong-hi who founded the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF) in 1966, as saying North Korea ordered overseas ITF masters, including himself, to assassinate President Chun Doo Hwan. "After taking control of the ITF, the North trained spies and sent them overseas, disguising them as taekwondo masters," the Korea Times quoted Choi as telling reporters on his return to South Korea on Monday after living overseas for 34 years. The Korea Times quoted Choi as saying he plotted to kill Chun on a visit to Canada in 1982, but Canadian police got wind of the plan and Choi fled to North Korea. An official at South Korea's culture ministry had no comment. Choi Jung-hwa could not be reached for immediate comment on the media coverage. Long-viewed with suspicion in South Korea, the ITF's structure is fragmented, with different groups in Austria and Canada claiming Choi Hong-hi's heritage after his death in 2002. Choi senior fell out of favour with then South Korean President Park Chung-hee in the 1970s, exiling himself to Canada and taking with him his International Taekwondo Federation, which had built up a widespread international membership. In 1973, the separate and unrelated World Taekwondo Federation sprang up in South Korea, rivalling the ITF and gaining huge popularity. WTF club memberships in South Korea dwarf ITF memberships, although ITF-style taekwondo enjoys greater popularity abroad. WTF taekwondo was adopted as an Olympic sport at the Sydney 2000 games and differs from ITF in sparring techniques and strategies. The JoongAng Ilbo newspaper said Choi had returned to South Korea to clear up misunderstandings about his past. "I have committed some wrongs whether it was my intention or not," it quoted Choi as telling reporters. "I should pay for what I have done." ________________ Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:15:58 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gichin Funakoshi was from Okinawa; Shoto , meaning "pine waves", was Funakoshi's pen-name,[1] which he used in his poetic and philosophical writings and messages to his students. People seem to make a very big deal about the roots of TKD coming from shotokan. Please do some MORE RESEARCH. Yes Gen. Choi did study Shotokan and we can similarities in the patterns. Moreover the similarities don't end there as mentioned above Funakoshi used poetic and philosophical writings. So did Gen. Choi, they were both fond of CHINESE calligraphy. Which leads me to the original name of KARATE, which called CHINA HAND. China hand as a name was never going to be popular in Tokyo. And then the Japanese changed the style from CHINA HAND to the very similar sounding EMPTY HAND. According to what I have read Funakoshi was not too pleased with what the Japanese had done with his style. >From the fluid "pine waves" to the more robotic. Remember a lot of the martial arts the was born I Okinawa was designed to COUNTER the Japanese weapons and methods. Gen. Choi himself pays subtle and not so subtle homage to the ORGINAL shotokan style thru his writing. In fact TKD even has its own CHINESE name Ch'ang H'ong. Yes this TKD is a Catholic style but didn't the great Bruce Lee say, "take what is useful and discard the rest"?? that's evolution or survival. I will not comment on what is described as sport. That's not my territory. However what I do know is that this catholic style has been used in great effect in TWO WARS at least and my personal favourite fighting unit the GURKHAS still use it. All the best Peter -----Original Message----- From: Zisheged@aol.com [mailto:Zisheged@aol.com] Sent: 15 September 2008 16:32 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae One more complication. As we all know, TKD which is a descendant of Shotokan was also a combination ( a dilution if you will) of all the Kwans forms to create a unified martial art. Many components of the poomsae hail from Shotokan, but there is also Taeguk Sa Jan which is Chinese in origin. Unity had it's price for sure. Kukki poomsae are a bit of a hodge podge but then again it harkens back to all the styles that made it possible. I compare Kukki TKD to the English language. Many flaws in structure, a loose conglomeration...but... who could deny the popularity?! It's Kukki-TKD that has reached millions and given them a flavor of martial arts and some conditioning. I certainly agree it should grow but again it's been a huge gift. Master Zishe **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. 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