Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:12:01 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #249 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Bruce Lee won't die (Ray) 2. RE: Kukki-poomsae (Rick Clark) 3. Master Dan Poomse and training in general (dan scholten) 4. Re: Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 5. Jackson Goat Roping (Wayne Watkins) 6. Sparring in TKD (Zisheged@aol.com) 7. Re: Sparring in TKD (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 8. speaking of poomsae (The_Dojang) 9. RE: Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. (Rick Clark) 10. Re: Master Dan Poomse and training in general (Ray) 11. RE: Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 12. Re: Jackson Goat Roping (Michael Munyon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:10:08 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Didn't he make a movie or two, I forget... :) I must say it bothers me that so many quote this line from Mr. Lee, yet it is so wrong-wrong-wrong. imho. It is my impression that this attitude is perhaps how we end up with styles like Combat Hapkido. The problem is that what frequently seems useless really just means that you need to "eat more rice" (the Asian way of saying you need to live a bit longer and put in more practice time). I admit that there are a few techniques that may work better if one has a build that is short and stout vs. one that is long and lean, and vice versa, but but but do you still want to discard it? I submit that, no, you do not. Esp not if you ever think of teaching or working out with friends for which the technique might work great. I think Mr. Lee should have said, "absorb what is immediately useful and then revisit the rest over and over and over again". In there may be hidden some real pearls of wisdom. Ray On Sep 16, 2008, at 2:15 PM, Peter wrote: > but didn't the great Bruce Lee say, > "take what is useful and discard the rest"?? that's evolution or > survival. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:25:26 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Peter, > From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk > Gichin Funakoshi was from Okinawa; Shoto , meaning "pine waves", was > Funakoshi's pen-name,[1] which he used in his poetic and philosophical > writings and messages to his students. People seem to make a very big > deal about the roots of TKD coming from shotokan. [Rick Clark] I make a big deal out of it because for so many years the Korean's have tried to say that TKD came from some 2,000 year old martial art. Where in fact it was something new (1945). >Please do some MORE > RESEARCH. Yes Gen. Choi did study Shotokan and we can similarities in > the patterns. Moreover the similarities don't end there [Rick Clark] The similarities in the various forms are very striking. In fact, in Gen. Choi's first book he has the Japanese/Okinawan forms in his book with Korean names. > as mentioned > above Funakoshi used poetic and philosophical writings. So did Gen. > Choi, they were both fond of CHINESE calligraphy. [Rick Clark] Just a guess but I would suspect that anyone from Korea, Japan, Okinawa, or China that was well educated would have had an interest in Calligraphy. > Which leads me to > the > original name of KARATE, which called CHINA HAND. China hand as a name > was never going to be popular in Tokyo. > And then the Japanese changed the style from CHINA HAND to the very > similar sounding EMPTY HAND. [Rick Clark] And if you look at the calligraphy Kong Su Do and Tang Su Do are the same characters. Just as Kwon Bup is the same as Kempo....... Back in the 60's the Koreans were fond of saying that TKD had it's roots in Kwon Bup, but they did not say that it was Kempo. >According to what I have read Funakoshi > was not too pleased with what the Japanese had done with his style. [Rick Clark] >From my read, he was more displeased with how it went to a sport, sparring, that kind of a thing. He put a lot of emphasis on Kata (forms) and not was not big on free sparing. That's one reason I have heard Oyama broke from Funakoshi and eventually started his own system. > From the fluid "pine waves" to the more robotic. Remember a lot of the > martial arts the was born I Okinawa was designed to COUNTER the > Japanese > weapons and methods. [Rick Clark] I think there is a bit of popular myth in this. I truly doubt that the Okinawan empty hand art was developed to fight against a sword swinging opponent. Now if you say Kobudo was developed for use against a sword, that would make more sense. No one in their right mind would go up against someone with a weapon - without a weapon if there was a choice. And Okinawan kobudo does make use of weapons that could be near by or on the person. > Gen. Choi himself pays subtle and not so subtle homage to the ORGINAL > shotokan style thru his writing. In fact TKD even has its own CHINESE > name Ch'ang H'ong. > Yes this TKD is a Catholic style but didn't the great Bruce Lee say, > "take what is useful and discard the rest"?? [Rick Clark] To be honest, I don't think Bruce Lee had lived long enough to make some informed opinions. How much better would he have been if he had been alive for another 40 or 50 years? He was a very young man, and had a lot of talent to be sure. But, he was still very young and could have been so much better. > that's evolution or > survival. I will not comment on what is described as sport. That's not > my territory. However what I do know is that this catholic style has > been used in great effect in TWO WARS at least and my personal > favourite > fighting unit the GURKHAS still use it. [Rick Clark] I suspect that what is taught to the Gurkhas or has been used in war is not the same TKD as being used in the Olympics. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:26:34 -0800 From: dan scholten To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Dan Poomse and training in general Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have bitched for decades about the watering down of traditional TKD by the Westernization or turning it into a MacDonald's Franchise for profit business what was meant to be non profit tradition of father to son master to deciple. Our result is and some of the original 5,000 master sent here to exploit us would agree that the result is a bunch of Master's that do not know their butt from a hole in the ground with students that know even less. Their basics and self defense is pitiful at best. Coming from one who is a certified Referee and has trained with the Head of the Kukkiwon Poomsee instructor responsible for unifying the Poomse take Note!!!!!!!! I have noted the changes to the stances for standardization and explained a more practical method of transition but I wonder if this is still more weakening of traditional stances to support ease of movement as opposed to strength and balance? Just in the case of good strong full contact fighter to faster flashing weak fighting?? I would take issue that only the Koreans know good Poomse.I have watched with pain and disdain for years video after video with Korean's showing Poomse with bad blocks, bad balance and stance and worse yet pitiful punching with no application of any knowledge of hitting to any particular spot. My GM in 2002 reemfisised the need for never forget or stop training basic balance, stance and blocks. He is right but the Western culture is fat and lazy and kids and students today think once is enough let alone thousand and for the rest of your life keep doing this because it is necessary. Let alone go on from their to the offensive nature of Poomse instead of defensive alone. Second point those in the know say the WTF is sport only and Kukkiwon is the authority on Traditional Tae Kwon Do. There seems to be a shift politically to do away with the Kwan's by some however those who discount tradition may not have been loyal to a root original master for 35 years or longer or have little knowledge of a Kwan or their own Kwan. I will always be Jido Kwan and Kukkiwon and after that on down. I don't give a damn what you call your form what are you doing and thinking when you do it and can you fight and defend your self better than 80% of the people on the street. I have judged tournaments that the students were so bad at state level we wanted to find the Master's and tear them a new but better yet teach them for free if possible. TKD seems so fractured by so many groups that I wonder if it will ever really regroup but I hope that in time turning back to traditional martial art values before we die it will improve not for the edification of a few but for the welfare of the larger whole. All of you who are new or interested in really being able to excel as instructor or defend your self take time to compare and investigate look for long time decades of ties to the origins and more than just sport hype which generally the best sport fighters are the worst instructors they have little to give to anyone but them selves because that is what it takes to focus. I watched Ernie Reyes Senior do his form at 61 looking like 30 in LA in July. I started TKD with him and found his form interesting some what snake like and wondered what he was thinking or what the applications were. If anyone else was there and watched what did you think??? Master Dan --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:14:52 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings and Pilseung! In order to further the spread of Tae Kwon Do, its tenets and benefits, many people have tried to make it available/marketable to the general public. Military style drilling, long, intense, exhaustive workout routines are not desirable or practical for most people, especially children. Disrespect, self-centeredness, short attention spans and desire for instant gratification are some of the bad changes that have taken hold. Tae Kwon Do teaches the general public (especially kids) to have courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self control and an indomitable spirit. If it is a watered down version of the original teachings, so be it. It's still better than the alternatives (TV & video games). Sometimes I wonder if the program is too lenient, but I know the instructors don’t want to discourage people from making whatever progress they ARE capable of making. Building confidence first can motivate some to try harder. If you cannot inspire them, at what point should you stop accepting mediocrity and push them to step up to a higher level before continuing? Trying to inspire students is an ongoing process. Sometimes it takes more effort with a student to inspire them. Other students are already motivated and put forth more effort and make more progress. Each student's progress is based on how much they put into their training, and its different for everyone. The TKD forms are a way of building and testing the skills. The techniques used in each form are practiced and built upon as the student progresses. The school I attend teaches the applications of each of the techniques that we learn. (Chang Hon Hyungs) The desire for proper technique is stressed always. As the student progresses, so does their ability to perform proper technique. And the learning never stops. No one can say that they have PERFECTED the technique or form. It is a constant learning process. Sincerely, Victor Dodge --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:26:07 -0500 From: "Wayne Watkins" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Jackson Goat Roping Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere Hilland I may be old but I still have my hair (even if the color has changed.) It was absolutely wonderful to see all my friends that attended the seminar last week-end. I really missed our Texas friends and my heart goes out to them. I encourage everyone who reads this to make a donation to The Salvation Army. For those keeping up with numbers, my estimate is that we had about 178 folks having a great time, learning and sharing. Not one bad attitude in the whole bunch, just people coming together with an empty cup, open to learning. Each person came with a positive outlook and left better off for the experience. Why are these events so successful? The answer is very simple, "Customer Satisfaction." The sessions are great, the instructors are outstanding but the biggest thing is the great "Family" that has developed over the last 15 years. Some people have asked who comes up with the names for the secessions. This is a closely guarded secret and GM West has promised to not reveal my name. It should be noted that we had two separate sessions dealing with self defense for women. Michael Munyon protested this fact fiercely. His contention being that one of the women in particular, was far too dangerous already. J Ray we missed you and hope you are doing OK. My Texas friends I am glad you are safe and you are in my prayers. Hoping to see all of you in February for the 30th International Martial Arts, Goat Roping and Bar-B-Que. If you have never been "Come on down" we will adopt you into the "Family." Uncle Wayne "If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem" --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Zisheged@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:55:29 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sparring in TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Let's address sparring in TKD. Now, of course, sparring can't be compared with Judo/Yudo, Hapkido/Aikido or Jiu Jitsu as these arts are profoundly different. Perhaps the most adaptable for me, to the streets would be Jiu Jitsu. But when we speak of Kyorgi here lies TKD's greatest failing. Watching Olympic sparring is like watching paint dry. Great foot technique (as evidenced by the Cuban roundhousing the referee in the head) but arms dangling as if it were Irish Step Dancing. We rarely teach (although I've seen many schools recently do this) falling technique. We kick in only a very limited place, no ground game, no hands, no holding, no back punching etc. And we do this with armour. I am in favor of full armour to feet, hands, shins, forearms, head, groin mouth and wherever else we can place it, but after that we need to fight realistically. Watching UFC tells us what a real fight looks like. We in tkd needn't go that far, but we should kick to thighs, use knees, elbows a nd head punch, using the armour described before. THIS is our real weakness not forms.  But it gets back to the same thing, marketability. Make sparring that tough or forms that authentic and watch the students leave. The good old days are the "gone old days". **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sparring in TKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >I am in favor of full armour to feet, hands, shins, forearms, head, groin >mouth and wherever else we can place it, but after that we need to fight >realistically. This is what we do with "REDMAN" suit in sparring class. One of the assistant instructors will don the Redman suit and the student then has full contact training. Of course, the Redman is limited in mobility, but can still strike back. It gives the student a chance to use ALL of the techniques we are taught in class. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:47:24 -0700 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] speaking of poomsae Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The 3rd WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships 17 Sep 2008 Ref. No. 08/416 To: Presidents, Member National Associations Re: The 3rd WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships Dear Colleagues, The Beijing 2008 Olympic Games taekwondo competitions wrapped up with resounding success, which is largely due to the passion and endeavor of all 188 member nations of the WTF over the years. I wish to convey my sincere appreciation to the global taekwondo family. We have another prestigious event this year, which is the 3rd WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships to be held in Ankara, Turkey on December 12-14, 2008. This is the first edition taking place outside Korea, meaning that the WTF is embracing the globalization of Poomsae, one of the most beautiful disciplines of taekwondo. The inclusion of Poomsae in the 2009 Universiade has also been significant to the promotion and development of Poomsae. Hoping that this edition of World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships will serve as the momentum for further promotion of Poomsae throughout the world, please find enclosed the outline of the 3rd WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships. The Organizing Committee will send you detailed information and entry forms of the event in due time. I sincerely hope that you and your honored team participate in the Championships. Sincerely yours, Chungwon Choue President --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:01:45 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Victor, > The school I attend teaches the applications of each of the > techniques > that we learn. (Chang Hon Hyungs) > The desire for proper technique is stressed always. > As the student progresses, so does their ability to perform proper > technique. > And the learning never stops. No one can say that they have > PERFECTED > the technique or form. > It is a constant learning process. > Sincerely, > Victor Dodge [Rick Clark] Not knowing your skill level, year of practice, or life experience this question may miss the mark a bit. It's good to hear you are learning applications to forms. My question would be simply, are they realistic techniques? For example, are there movements that require you to "block" two different people at the same time? Are the techniques something that you would use in real life, bet your life on? Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Dan Poomse and training in general Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:57:09 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This shift is almost ancient by now. It began ~35 years ago. The Kukkiwon & KTA wanted the loyalty of the dans and masters to be to them, NOT to their former kwan. This is why it was difficult to get a Korean master, or at least many of them, to talk about kwans in the 1970s and 80s. But that didn't work too well and some kwans started reappearing, but nothing at all to the extent as we saw them in the 1960s and before. Ray On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:26 PM, dan wrote: > There seems to be a shift politically > to do away with the Kwan's by some --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:14:26 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The school I attend teaches the applications of each of the > techniques >[Rick Clark] Not knowing your skill level, year of practice, or life >experience this question may miss the mark a bit. I have 2 1/2 years of training. I have not had to use my newly learned skills outside the dojang, other than tournaments. >It's good to hear you are >learning applications to forms. My question would be simply, are they >realistic techniques? For example, are there movements that require you to >"block" two different people at the same time? My understanding of the Chang Hon Forms is that there are attackers coming from different directions and some of the movements are designed to "block" two at once. >Are the techniques something >that you would use in real life, bet your life on? I feel better knowing the techniques than not knowing them. I still would not go looking for trouble down dark alleyways at night. If I had to use the techniques I have learned, I am confident that the ones I have practiced the most, would be effective. I feel more comfortable using the HoShinSul techniques for self defense up close. Victor Dodge --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Michael Munyon To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jackson Goat Roping Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:25:36 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Uncle "Master" Wayne, You are so correct on every aspect you brought up. We missed our Texan friends, we had another great event, we were all proud of the attitudes of our friends/students and yes....I was scared of the evil woman in question. Though many of us have a lot of changes in our lives between people moving, the unfortunate hurricane and etc I really hope to see everyone at the USKMAF 30th Annual Martial Arts Family reunion. Thanks for providing the members and friends of the USKMAF with such quality training and customer service. Very Respecfully, Michael Munyon On Wed Sep 17 10:26 , 'Wayne Watkins' sent: Jere Hilland I may be old but I still have my hair (even if the color has changed.) It was absolutely wonderful to see all my friends that attended the seminar last week-end. I really missed our Texas friends and my heart goes out to them. I encourage everyone who reads this to make a donation to The Salvation Army. For those keeping up with numbers, my estimate is that we had about 178 folks having a great time, learning and sharing. Not one bad attitude in the whole bunch, just people coming together with an empty cup, open to learning. Each person came with a positive outlook and left better off for the experience. Why are these events so successful? The answer is very simple, "Customer Satisfaction." The sessions are great, the instructors are outstanding but the biggest thing is the great "Family" that has developed over the last 15 years. Some people have asked who comes up with the names for the secessions. This is a closely guarded secret and GM West has promised to not reveal my name. It should be noted that we had two separate sessions dealing with self defense for women. Michael Munyon protested this fact fiercely. His contention being that one of the women in particular, was far too dangerous already. J Ray we missed you and hope you are doing OK. My Texas friends I am glad you are safe and you are in my prayers. Hoping to see all of you in February for the 30th International Martial Arts, Goat Roping and Bar-B-Que. If you have never been "Come on down" we will adopt you into the "Family." Uncle Wayne "If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem" _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest