Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:14:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #250 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Jackson Goat Roping (J R Hilland) 2. RE: Bruce Lee won't die (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 3. RE: Kukki-poomsae (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 4. Re: Bruce Lee won't die (Ray) 5. Re: Kukki-poomsae (Ray) 6. RE: Bruce Lee won't die (Rick Clark) 7. RE: Kukki-poomsae (Rick Clark) 8. Re: RE: Jackson Goat Roping (Michael Munyon) 9. RE: Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:23:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Jackson Goat Roping Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Ray! Most of his quotes are also so wrong-wrong-wrong... Nothing wrong with teaching (and learning) the WHOLE art. If we don't teach it, who will? Nothing worse in the MA than learning part of an art IMHO. My favorite 'wrong' however is the when he says don't bow correctly and keep your eye on your opponent. Now what moron would bow to an attacker? <<>> Uncle Wayne - I had hair the first 4 decades in Texas, but as I have spent the last decade in up north, it has all frozen and fallen off! <<>> That must be Dr. Sanders, one of the meanest women on the mats! Michael: I will be posting the photos in the next few days (I will send the DD the links) that Dave sent me and in most of them I am abusing you during my demo. The others are Master Holcombe Thomas and I both abusing you at once for Dave's camera. It was great fun abusing a ITF 5th dan disguised as a hapkido chodan... :) Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:34:31 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Ray. Combat Hapkido may not be an ideal measure of Bruce's sound bite but what would you say about BJJ? Perhaps its not a complete style but its evolution has come constant testing. A Euro for your thoughts...? Peter -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:thedojang@sbcglobal.net] Sent: 17 September 2008 01:10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die Didn't he make a movie or two, I forget... :) I must say it bothers me that so many quote this line from Mr. Lee, yet it is so wrong-wrong-wrong. imho. It is my impression that this attitude is perhaps how we end up with styles like Combat Hapkido. The problem is that what frequently seems useless really just means that you need to "eat more rice" (the Asian way of saying you need to live a bit longer and put in more practice time). I admit that there are a few techniques that may work better if one has a build that is short and stout vs. one that is long and lean, and vice versa, but but but do you still want to discard it? I submit that, no, you do not. Esp not if you ever think of teaching or working out with friends for which the technique might work great. I think Mr. Lee should have said, "absorb what is immediately useful and then revisit the rest over and over and over again". In there may be hidden some real pearls of wisdom. Ray On Sep 16, 2008, at 2:15 PM, Peter wrote: > but didn't the great Bruce Lee say, > "take what is useful and discard the rest"?? that's evolution or > survival. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:29:02 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rick thank for your informed and measured response. Your comments are like well timed blokes and strikes. I'm a big fan of Bruce so I won't comment on that. However on the topic of the 2000 year old martial art what I find interesting is that there are cave or wall paintings of foot fighting. However, I would say that I don't think what we see in the Olympics is the same art. The fact that the art that I enjoy started mid way thru the last century doesn't bother me one bit. In my personal opinion I don't need to stand on genealogy, just merit. If you are good enough then you're good enough. Just look at what the Gracie's have done. Please don't think that people should not honour their traditions. They should but not myths(IMO). -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 17 September 2008 02:25 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Hi Peter, > From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk > Gichin Funakoshi was from Okinawa; Shoto , meaning "pine waves", was > Funakoshi's pen-name,[1] which he used in his poetic and philosophical > writings and messages to his students. People seem to make a very big > deal about the roots of TKD coming from shotokan. [Rick Clark] I make a big deal out of it because for so many years the Korean's have tried to say that TKD came from some 2,000 year old martial art. Where in fact it was something new (1945). >Please do some MORE > RESEARCH. Yes Gen. Choi did study Shotokan and we can similarities in > the patterns. Moreover the similarities don't end there [Rick Clark] The similarities in the various forms are very striking. In fact, in Gen. Choi's first book he has the Japanese/Okinawan forms in his book with Korean names. > as mentioned > above Funakoshi used poetic and philosophical writings. So did Gen. > Choi, they were both fond of CHINESE calligraphy. [Rick Clark] Just a guess but I would suspect that anyone from Korea, Japan, Okinawa, or China that was well educated would have had an interest in Calligraphy. > Which leads me to > the > original name of KARATE, which called CHINA HAND. China hand as a name > was never going to be popular in Tokyo. > And then the Japanese changed the style from CHINA HAND to the very > similar sounding EMPTY HAND. [Rick Clark] And if you look at the calligraphy Kong Su Do and Tang Su Do are the same characters. Just as Kwon Bup is the same as Kempo....... Back in the 60's the Koreans were fond of saying that TKD had it's roots in Kwon Bup, but they did not say that it was Kempo. >According to what I have read Funakoshi > was not too pleased with what the Japanese had done with his style. [Rick Clark] >From my read, he was more displeased with how it went to a sport, sparring, that kind of a thing. He put a lot of emphasis on Kata (forms) and not was not big on free sparing. That's one reason I have heard Oyama broke from Funakoshi and eventually started his own system. > From the fluid "pine waves" to the more robotic. Remember a lot of the > martial arts the was born I Okinawa was designed to COUNTER the > Japanese > weapons and methods. [Rick Clark] I think there is a bit of popular myth in this. I truly doubt that the Okinawan empty hand art was developed to fight against a sword swinging opponent. Now if you say Kobudo was developed for use against a sword, that would make more sense. No one in their right mind would go up against someone with a weapon - without a weapon if there was a choice. And Okinawan kobudo does make use of weapons that could be near by or on the person. > Gen. Choi himself pays subtle and not so subtle homage to the ORGINAL > shotokan style thru his writing. In fact TKD even has its own CHINESE > name Ch'ang H'ong. > Yes this TKD is a Catholic style but didn't the great Bruce Lee say, > "take what is useful and discard the rest"?? [Rick Clark] To be honest, I don't think Bruce Lee had lived long enough to make some informed opinions. How much better would he have been if he had been alive for another 40 or 50 years? He was a very young man, and had a lot of talent to be sure. But, he was still very young and could have been so much better. > that's evolution or > survival. I will not comment on what is described as sport. That's not > my territory. However what I do know is that this catholic style has > been used in great effect in TWO WARS at least and my personal > favourite > fighting unit the GURKHAS still use it. [Rick Clark] I suspect that what is taught to the Gurkhas or has been used in war is not the same TKD as being used in the Olympics. Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:21:10 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net BJJ. Ok. What has been discarded? BJJ is essentially a "small man's" version of the Kodokan Judo from the 1910s-1920s, yes? Some things have been optimized a bit so that it works well for the smaller weaker individual, but I don't think much has been discarded from its original source material. And the syllabus has been restructured some so that more newaza is done early on and the "Judo throws" come along later. Ray On Sep 17, 2008, at 3:34 PM, wrote: > Combat Hapkido may not be an ideal measure of Bruce's > sound bite but what would you say about BJJ? Perhaps its not a > complete > style but its evolution has come constant testing. > A Euro for your thoughts...? --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:57:39 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Or tribal folk dancing. It is not really clear to anyone exactly what they are doing. Ray On Sep 17, 2008, at 3:29 PM, wrote: > However on the topic of the 2000 year old > martial art what I find interesting is that there are cave or wall > paintings of foot fighting. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:59:55 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Peter, > -----Original Message----- > From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk A Euro for your thoughts...? > Peter [Rick Clark] Ok, I am confused septic here - you ask for a Euro for your thoughts? Not a pound, or a quid? Your email is London-fire.gov.uk not IE or BE or ...... Perhaps you are in Northern Ireland? Cheers, Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:54:55 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Peter, > From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk > Dear Rick thank for your informed and measured response. Your comments > are like well timed blokes and strikes. [Rick Clark] Thanks - sometimes it's hard to comment on things and not be perceived as being a jerk or worse. I'm a big fan of Bruce so I > won't comment on that. [Rick Clark] Don't get me wrong, I am a fan as well. Who could not appreciate what he did to make the martial arts more popular. He had an amazing effect on the martial arts community that can even be seen today. But some of the stuff that has jumped off of the silver screen and being taken as gospel. For one thing I have always has bugged me is where he chided another in his film for bowing and having their eyes down, not looking at your opponent, being afraid that when you bow and lower your eyes you are subject to a surprise attack. For me, the purpose of a bow is to show respect for your opponent, show that you trust your opponent, and showing respect for your instructor. In fact I was taught the depth of the bow determined your position in status to the person you bow to. A student would have a deeper bow than the instructor. I always made sure that my bow was deeper and longer than my instructors, showing my respect and TRUST in them. I had absolutely fear that they would attack me with my eyes lower, heck they did not need that advantage to beat me up :-) For that matter when sparing in the club I would match the bow of my classmates and lower my eyes, again to show the respect AND trust in them. > However on the topic of the 2000 year old > martial art what I find interesting is that there are cave or wall > paintings of foot fighting. [Rick Clark] If you look at the history of Korea you will see that during the Yi dynasty there was a rise in Confucian philosophy and the military was looked down upon. This led the weakening of Korea to the point that it allowed Japan to invade and conquer Korea. The military arts were really seen as low class, and the martial arts were lost for the most part. Evidence of this is how few masters of Tae Kyun there were back around 1945. I recall an article back in the 60's or 70's taking about a Tae Kyun master, who was the last one alive. So I find it very suspect when so many Kwan and "masters" say that TKD comes from a 2,000 year old art. Did the Koreans have a martial art 2,000 years ago? I am confident they did, no reason to think that they did not. But that is a long way from saying that this 2,000 year old art the root art of modern TKD - and esp for the Olympic versions of TKD. >However, I would say that I don't think > what we see in the Olympics is the same art. The fact that the art > that > I enjoy started mid way thru the last century doesn't bother me one > bit. [Rick Clark] Agreed. BUT, I just wish I would have been given the real history of TKD when I started than the rubbish that was being passed on. Sure today we all will admit to the connection of Shotokan to the various Kwan. But back in the 60's you would have been burned at the stake as a heretic. And before anyone points it out to me, I am aware that there were some Koreans who did make passing mention of the Japanese connection. Choi Hong Hi's first book gave some veiled acknowledgment as well as Richard Kim and Daeshik Kim. But I think in Richard Kim's book (after the 1st printing) there were things that were stricken (Korean Karate was the name of his book as I recall). > In my personal opinion I don't need to stand on genealogy, just merit. > If you are good enough then you're good enough. Just look at what the > Gracie's have done. [Rick Clark] Sure, I agree, but genealogy is important if you "fudge" the history to make it more "authentic" or mystical, traditional, or what ever. > > Please don't think that people should not honour their traditions. > They > should but not myths(IMO). [Rick Clark] Seems like we agree in this. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Michael Munyon To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Jackson Goat Roping Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:43:10 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net DON'T MAKE ME SICK ALEX ON YOUR SIR! Very Respecfully, Michael Munyon On Wed Sep 17 14:23 , 'J R Hilland' sent: << it is so wrong-wrong-wrong. imho. It is my impression that this attitude is perhaps how we end up with styles like Combat Hapkido.>>> Ray! Most of his quotes are also so wrong-wrong-wrong... Nothing wrong with teaching (and learning) the WHOLE art. If we don't teach it, who will? Nothing worse in the MA than learning part of an art IMHO. My favorite 'wrong' however is the when he says don't bow correctly and keep your eye on your opponent. Now what moron would bow to an attacker? << changed.)>>> Uncle Wayne - I had hair the first 4 decades in Texas, but as I have spent the last decade in up north, it has all frozen and fallen off! << one of the women in particular, was far too dangerous already.>>> That must be Dr. Sanders, one of the meanest women on the mats! Michael: I will be posting the photos in the next few days (I will send the DD the links) that Dave sent me and in most of them I am abusing you during my demo. The others are Master Holcombe Thomas and I both abusing you at once for Dave's camera. It was great fun abusing a ITF 5th dan disguised as a hapkido chodan... :) Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:18:26 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Victor, > From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com [mailto:Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com] > > > The school I attend teaches the applications of each of the > > techniques > > >[Rick Clark] Not knowing your skill level, year of practice, or life > >experience this question may miss the mark a bit. > > I have 2 1/2 years of training. I have not had to use my newly learned > skills outside the dojang, other than tournaments. [Rick Clark] Congratulations! That's what we all want, never having to use our techniques for real. But if we do then we hope to come out on top. I have been active in the martial arts since 1962, and unfortunately I have had to use my skills outside the do-jang/dojo. But then again I owned a night club, and worked law enforcement in the USAF. > > >It's good to hear you are > >learning applications to forms. My question would be simply, are they > >realistic techniques? For example, are there movements that require > you > to > >"block" two different people at the same time? > > My understanding of the Chang Hon Forms is that there are attackers > coming > from different directions and some of the movements are designed to > "block" > two at once. [Rick Clark] This is precisely the kind of thing I think has truly limited real life application. Do you REALLY think that such techniques would work? Try doing such a defense in class (two people attacking at the same time) and you will find that you have to get the people to coordinate their attack precisely or you will not be able to perform the technique as described. Think of it this way, there can be lots of applications to a single movement, and the more experience you have in the martial arts the more likely you are to see things in a different way. Like an onion has many layers of skin, applications can have many layers, the first layer is the most basic. Successive layers can be more advanced or deeper understanding. > >Are the techniques something > >that you would use in real life, bet your life on? > > I feel better knowing the techniques than not knowing them. > I still would not go looking for trouble down dark alleyways at night. > If I had to use the techniques I have learned, I am confident that the > ones > I have practiced the most, would be effective. > I feel more comfortable using the HoShinSul techniques for self defense > up > close. > > Victor Dodge [Rick Clark] Let me ask a further question, based on your response. You say that you would be more comfortable using the Ho Shin Sul techniques close up. Is there any reason those same techniques are not to be found in the various form? As a little test, take one technique from Ho Shin Sul that you REALLY believe would work for you in a real life situation. Perform that technique just as you would do it with a partner, but without a partner. Do it 10 or 15 times, perhaps even more. Review in your mind what it is you are doing by yourself, and see if you can picture that movement being done in one of the forms you know. Perhaps it's not exactly like the self defense technique or in the form. BUT is it close? Or if you don't see that movement in the form, try another, and another. I am confident that within a couple of techniques you will spot some similar movements. Now if you do see some similarities give some thought to some of the other movements in the forms and see if you might spot some alternative explanations to the ones you might see in the TKD books out there, or from other sources. Rick Clark --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest