Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:55:04 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #251 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Bruce Lee won't die (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 2. RE: Bruce Lee won't die (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 3. RE: Kukki-poomsae (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 4. RE: Kukki-poomsae (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 5. Re: Kukki-poomsae (Ray) 6. Korean Harvest Festival (Ray) 7. RE: Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 8. RE: Korean Harvest Festival (Christian Briggs) 9. RE: Bruce Lee won't die (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:28:47 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Its normally "a penny for your thoughts". But with the credit crunch and inflation in the UK, a euro is now the currency preference! Peter -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 18 September 2008 04:00 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die Hi Peter, > -----Original Message----- > From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk A Euro for your thoughts...? > Peter [Rick Clark] Ok, I am confused septic here - you ask for a Euro for your thoughts? Not a pound, or a quid? Your email is London-fire.gov.uk not IE or BE or ...... Perhaps you are in Northern Ireland? Cheers, Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 2 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:40:56 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok. I can go along with that. To take the throwing point, a couple of the Gracie family have trained in the London Kodokan Judo club. Apparently their throws aren't up to much. But not say that they don't know how to. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:thedojang@sbcglobal.net] Sent: 18 September 2008 00:21 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die BJJ. Ok. What has been discarded? BJJ is essentially a "small man's" version of the Kodokan Judo from the 1910s-1920s, yes? Some things have been optimized a bit so that it works well for the smaller weaker individual, but I don't think much has been discarded from its original source material. And the syllabus has been restructured some so that more newaza is done early on and the "Judo throws" come along later. Ray On Sep 17, 2008, at 3:34 PM, wrote: > Combat Hapkido may not be an ideal measure of Bruce's > sound bite but what would you say about BJJ? Perhaps its not a > complete > style but its evolution has come constant testing. > A Euro for your thoughts...? _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:30:41 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good point. However African slaves used to do a high energy dance they converted to a fighting style... Peter -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:thedojang@sbcglobal.net] Sent: 18 September 2008 01:58 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Or tribal folk dancing. It is not really clear to anyone exactly what they are doing. Ray On Sep 17, 2008, at 3:29 PM, wrote: > However on the topic of the 2000 year old > martial art what I find interesting is that there are cave or wall > paintings of foot fighting. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:22:06 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well done Rick. When I have a couple of hours free I'll have to do some more reading up! But it's good to know that we agree on a few things and I've learnt a few bits too. BOW. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 18 September 2008 03:55 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Hi Peter, > From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk > Dear Rick thank for your informed and measured response. Your comments > are like well timed blokes and strikes. [Rick Clark] Thanks - sometimes it's hard to comment on things and not be perceived as being a jerk or worse. I'm a big fan of Bruce so I > won't comment on that. [Rick Clark] Don't get me wrong, I am a fan as well. Who could not appreciate what he did to make the martial arts more popular. He had an amazing effect on the martial arts community that can even be seen today. But some of the stuff that has jumped off of the silver screen and being taken as gospel. For one thing I have always has bugged me is where he chided another in his film for bowing and having their eyes down, not looking at your opponent, being afraid that when you bow and lower your eyes you are subject to a surprise attack. For me, the purpose of a bow is to show respect for your opponent, show that you trust your opponent, and showing respect for your instructor. In fact I was taught the depth of the bow determined your position in status to the person you bow to. A student would have a deeper bow than the instructor. I always made sure that my bow was deeper and longer than my instructors, showing my respect and TRUST in them. I had absolutely fear that they would attack me with my eyes lower, heck they did not need that advantage to beat me up :-) For that matter when sparing in the club I would match the bow of my classmates and lower my eyes, again to show the respect AND trust in them. > However on the topic of the 2000 year old > martial art what I find interesting is that there are cave or wall > paintings of foot fighting. [Rick Clark] If you look at the history of Korea you will see that during the Yi dynasty there was a rise in Confucian philosophy and the military was looked down upon. This led the weakening of Korea to the point that it allowed Japan to invade and conquer Korea. The military arts were really seen as low class, and the martial arts were lost for the most part. Evidence of this is how few masters of Tae Kyun there were back around 1945. I recall an article back in the 60's or 70's taking about a Tae Kyun master, who was the last one alive. So I find it very suspect when so many Kwan and "masters" say that TKD comes from a 2,000 year old art. Did the Koreans have a martial art 2,000 years ago? I am confident they did, no reason to think that they did not. But that is a long way from saying that this 2,000 year old art the root art of modern TKD - and esp for the Olympic versions of TKD. >However, I would say that I don't think > what we see in the Olympics is the same art. The fact that the art > that > I enjoy started mid way thru the last century doesn't bother me one > bit. [Rick Clark] Agreed. BUT, I just wish I would have been given the real history of TKD when I started than the rubbish that was being passed on. Sure today we all will admit to the connection of Shotokan to the various Kwan. But back in the 60's you would have been burned at the stake as a heretic. And before anyone points it out to me, I am aware that there were some Koreans who did make passing mention of the Japanese connection. Choi Hong Hi's first book gave some veiled acknowledgment as well as Richard Kim and Daeshik Kim. But I think in Richard Kim's book (after the 1st printing) there were things that were stricken (Korean Karate was the name of his book as I recall). > In my personal opinion I don't need to stand on genealogy, just merit. > If you are good enough then you're good enough. Just look at what the > Gracie's have done. [Rick Clark] Sure, I agree, but genealogy is important if you "fudge" the history to make it more "authentic" or mystical, traditional, or what ever. > > Please don't think that people should not honour their traditions. > They > should but not myths(IMO). [Rick Clark] Seems like we agree in this. Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE Live in London? Free home safety visits - free smoke alarm? Freephone 08000 28 44 28 Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kukki-poomsae Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:31:06 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eventually, once "they moved" to Brazil and gave us Capoeira. But that is not to say the dances, or whatever those figures are doing on the wall, are the genesis of Korea's foot fighting. That is perhaps more a mixture of the game of taekkyon with martial arts from China and Japan, and desire to create something entirely separate and unique from that of the hated Japanese (post WWII). Ray On Sep 18, 2008, at 12:30 AM, Peter wrote: > However African slaves used to do a high energy dance they > converted to a fighting style... --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:33:45 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Harvest Festival Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Time Out New York Issue 677 Sep 19–25, 2008 Korean Harvest Festival Chusok, the Korean version of Thanksgiving, hits Queens this weekend. TONY’s resident Korean explains the foreign traditions... By James Y. Lee Tae kwon do: Koreans take pride in their martial arts, so don’t even think of mentioning Best of the Best, the crap ’80s flick that depicts a buncha white dudes defeating us in our own national sport. This year’s fest features the first-ever U.S. appearance of the Korean National Tae Kwon Do team, plus experts from Kukkiwon, one of only two organizations that provides black belt-degree promotion. (I stopped at a blue belt; it was easier to accessorize.) Kobukson: It means “turtle ship,” and it was the first iron vessel built for battles. “The Japanese attacked Korea in the 16th century,” says Jin Lee, a Korean who also happens to be my mom. “One of the admirals [Yi Sun-sin] protected us and captained the ship; his face is on our money. He illed lots and lots of Japanese. He is one of our heroes.” A 20-foot-long battleship replica will be on display at Saturday’s festivities. Hanbok: This traditional garb is usually worn at weddings and features long sleeves that look like Fruit Roll-Ups. Speaking of weddings, there’ll be a real, live one complete with hanbok getups. The new hubby often gives piggyback rides to his wife and mother-in-law—a symbol of that he accepts his obligations to them. “Relatives throw chestnuts for prosperity and good luck for lots of children,” says my mom, before launching into a rant, asking why can’t I just marry “a nice Korean girl.” Kimchi: The spicy fermented cabbage is a staple in our diet (we even put it on pizza and burgers) and the main reason for our horrible dragon breath. Pick up a few jars and be sure to quadruple-bag ’em—the stank sticks like white on rice (says the Asian guy). This is also a great opportunity to make peace with your local Korean bodega owner— some 3,000 vendors are involved with the fest. We’re an unforgiving lot, too. My mother has yet to exonerate Michael Douglas for trashing that Korean grocery store in Falling Down. The Wonder Girls: We know, we know—you’re starting to miss the sight of white people. But you should really sample our music! Cutie- patootie pop stars the Wonder Girls are hot sh*t in Korea and will headline a concert on Sunday 21. “They’re cute and funky,” says event coordinator and lifelong Korean Young Park. “They’re cute like my sisters. Nothing sexual. I would describe them as, like, a not-as- spicy Spice Girls.” Other performers include pop and R&B singers J.Y. Park, Jay Lim, G-Soul and Min—also the bomb. Or as Kim Jong il might say—the nuke. READY TO GO? Korean Harvest Festival, Flushing Meadows–Corona Park, Grand Central Pkwy and Van Wyck Expwy, Flushing Meadows, Queens (nycgovparks.org). Sat 20 10am–6pm; Sun 21 2:30–6pm (concert only); free. --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Poomsae, real martial arts, stances etc. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:59:58 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good morning Mr. Clark, >I have been active in the martial arts since 1962, and unfortunately I have had to >use my skills outside the do-jang/dojo. But then again I owned a night >club, and worked law enforcement in the USAF. [Victor Dodge] Bow. Thank you for sharing your many years of experience and wisdom. Do you feel that it was the quality of teaching or the many years of training in your chosen art that allowed you to successfully apply it when needed? >[Rick Clark] >This is precisely the kind of thing I think has truly limited real life >application. Do you REALLY think that such techniques would work? Try >doing such a defense in class (two people attacking at the same time) and >you will find that you have to get the people to coordinate their attack >precisely or you will not be able to perform the technique as described. >Think of it this way, there can be lots of applications to a single >movement, and the more experience you have in the martial arts the more >likely you are to see things in a different way. Like an onion has many >layers of skin, applications can have many layers, the first layer is the >most basic. Successive layers can be more advanced or deeper understanding. [Victor Dodge] We do practice some against multiple attackers in class (non-contact) and in sparring (lite-full contact). That is when we find which techniques work well and which ones needed more practice. >[Rick Clark] Let me ask a further question, based on your response. You say >that you would be more comfortable using the Ho Shin Sul techniques close >up. Is there any reason those same techniques are not to be found in the >various form? As a little test, take one technique from Ho Shin Sul that >you REALLY believe would work for you in a real life situation. Perform >that technique just as you would do it with a partner, but without a >partner. Do it 10 or 15 times, perhaps even more. Review in your mind what >it is you are doing by yourself, and see if you can picture that movement >being done in one of the forms you know. Perhaps it's not exactly like the >self defense technique or in the form. BUT is it close? Or if you don't >see that movement in the form, try another, and another. I am confident >that within a couple of techniques you will spot some similar movements. >Now if you do see some similarities give some thought to some of the other >movements in the forms and see if you might spot some alternative >explanations to the ones you might see in the TKD books out there, or from >other sources. [Victor Dodge] As I have progressed in rank (I have just tested for Cho Dan Bo and passed) and was introduced to new techniques, I have found that each form movement is also a building block for a more advanced technique, and some of these new techniques are incorporated into the next form. However, the self-defense techniques I have been taught include movements that were not introduced until just now. These techniques are not used in sparring (joint locks & take-downs), but do have the ability to effectively immobilize an attacker. As a member of our school's senior (over 35) demo team, I have practiced these techniques enough times to know which one's I can use proficiently and which ones I still need lots of practice with. I also realize I have a LOT more to learn! Respectfully, Victor Ddoge, --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Korean Harvest Festival Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:07:58 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I loved the Best of the Best. I even liked the sequels. Eric Roberts Fighting stance was awesome. I go into every sparring match my one legged fighting stace, and my hair in some crazy cool pony tail. Tae kwon do: Koreans take pride in their martial arts, so don't even think of mentioning Best of the Best, the crap '80s flick that depicts a buncha white dudes defeating us in our own national sport. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: michael tomlinson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:01:30 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net How about a Guiness??? Now that is some REAL currency I can wrap my brain around...Michael Tomlinson> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:59:55 -0400> From: rick.aodenkou@verizon.net> Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee won't die> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> > Hi Peter,> > -----Original Message-----> > From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk> A Euro for your thoughts...?> > Peter> > [Rick Clark] > Ok, I am confused septic here - you ask for a Euro for your thoughts? Not a> pound, or a quid? Your email is London-fire.gov.uk not IE or BE or ......> > Perhaps you are in Northern Ireland?> > Cheers,> Rick Clark> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550 F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest