Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:48:22 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #256 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re TMA v. MMA v. ??? (Donald) 2. Re: STUDENTS (Jye nigma) 3. Re: Schools (kcase@unitedtangsoodo.com) 4. Is it the style or the teacher? (zisheged@aol.com) 5. RE: STUDENTS (Rick Clark) 6. RE: Is it the style or the teacher? (michael tomlinson) 7. RE: Dojang (J R Hilland) 8. RE: RE: Dojang (michael tomlinson) 9. Re: RE: Dojang (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Is it the style or the teacher? (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Donald" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:11:26 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re TMA v. MMA v. ??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a few thoughts to consider. YMMV IF the foundation of a 'martial art', traditional or otherwise, is self-defense, then it is IMVVHO 'real'. The 'Do' is for self-improvement and learning responsibility for the martial skills acquired. This seems to be the divider between things like MMA and TKD, Hapkido, karate-do, etc. What is considered 'traditional' today was NOT when it was first created/evolved. Can we really judge? Yes, we all have opinions, but they remain just that. While differing MA's have different emphases, and learning curves for the various skill sets, most that I've seen, at their higher ranks have much in common if you can avoid the 'mine-is-better-than-yours' mindset. [Hey, I have trouble with this too ] Even a watered-down system, or one heavily pirated from a 'traditional' system, can produce 'real' martial artists with quality instruction and dedicated training. I wouldn't willingly be kicked by an Olympic Lopez [WTF], or want a wrist broken by a hapkido player from a mish-mash system. It's not the 'art' so much as it's the heart of the artist. For me, part of the appeal of my chosen art is that I can get out of it what I'm willing to put into the effort to train and learn. The 'best' MA is the one YOU practice every day. pil seung, Don Ross [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Emoticon1.gif] --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:14:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] STUDENTS To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The only problem with that is that student is representing you and your teaching. So if they venture out somewhere and display their skills (or lack of) then people will concatenate your pupil with your name (school). I'd rather have the tiny tots pay the rent and the older students represent the school with excellent skills.   Jye --- On Mon, 9/22/08, Robert Wood wrote: Then she said a very wise thing…some students just pay the rent and some students are a joy to teach. I carry that nugget around with me to this day. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 08:04:08 -0500 From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Schools Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Let's not forget that those kids that are training everyday from a young age are gaining skills and will be very good by the time they are teens and beyond. I myself had to struggle to accept after school babysitting until I started to see real results. This of course depends on a rock solid program and curriculum. SO don't necessarily discount and AMP as not being real martial arts. Also, let me add that in my over 30 years experience, what I have found is that there are very few 'hardcore' students these days. AND they don't stay around for more than a few years. I am a very traditional instructor but have made adjustments through the years to keep in touch with the times. I have taught surgeons, airline pilots, artists and others who HAD to be careful about injuries and thank goodness I've been lucky to have mainly minor injuries due to the safety and smart training in my curriculum. Still teach traditional warm-ups, line drills, specialty drills, forms, self defense, sparring that I always have but the difference again is that everything is safe and a mixture of challenging and fun whereas years ago everything was 'hardcore' no fun just work hard. So not only have our martial arts evolved, we too as instructors have evolved. We are blessed to have access to knowledge and learning opportunities our instructors unfortunately didn't have. My 2 cents worth, Kevin Case 5th Dan --__--__-- Message: 4 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:12:21 -0400 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Is it the style or the teacher? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well...there is merit in saying that the type of training one gets depends on the teacher rather than the style. Who could argue that notwithstanding the quality of the Sensei, that Kyokushin Kai Karate is perforce more rigorous than TKD?? In my experience, all the ITF schools I've visited were far more rigorous in style demands as well as training. As I've previously noted, there are still good WTF schools that are not kiddy services. What makes my school a "real" school? It's the demands I place on weight and aerobic training. The successes we've had in sparring and the higher drop out rate.? More proof resides only in my ego. Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:13:30 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] STUDENTS To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, > From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] [Rick Clark] I have to agree with you, to a point. ANY instructor who has been around any length of time knows we all have great students, good students, and some that are not so good. We all need to stop and remember that we all have students that represent our school better than others, and at some point others will judge us by our own students. I have a article I wrote that you may find interesting about Pareto's law, it may give you some ideas on how to think about your students - and students of others. I have found Pareto's law to have a lot of applications in my life, if you have not heard of it have a look and see where you might be able to use it in your martial arts. http://ao-denkou-kai.org/80_20.htm I am sorry I'll not be able to follow up in a timely manner with this post, I'll be in Belgium, Germany, and France teaching seminars. So I may not have much internet access. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > The only problem with that is that student is representing you and your > teaching. So if they venture out somewhere and display their skills (or > lack > of) then people will concatenate your pupil with your name (school). > I'd > rather have the tiny tots pay the rent and the older students represent > the > school with excellent skills. > > Jye > > --- On Mon, 9/22/08, Robert Wood wrote: > > Then she said a very wise thingsome students just pay the rent > and some > students are a joy to teach. I carry that > nugget around with me to this day. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: michael tomlinson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Is it the style or the teacher? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:42:32 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can't comment on new TKD because I'm not involved in it so it would just be me talking out of my backside but back in the 70's the TKD programs were no joke...I remember several Korean Masters that were incredible teachers and fighters....and they ALL practiced what they preached....TKD was a scarey martial art then and there weren't that many schools to be found...when you found one it was run by a Korean that hardly spoke any english and would work out right beside you and push you to the limits......I have nothing but respect for those Masters and times...Michael Tomlinson> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:12:21 -0400> From: zisheged@aol.com> Subject: [The_Dojang] Is it the style or the teacher?> > Well...there is merit in saying that the type of training one gets depends on the teacher rather than the style. Who could argue that notwithstanding the quality of the Sensei, that Kyokushin Kai Karate is perforce more rigorous than TKD?? In my experience, all the ITF schools I've visited were far more rigorous in style demands as well as training. As I've previously noted, there are still good WTF schools that are not kiddy services. What makes my school a "real" school? It's the demands I place on weight and aerobic training. The successes we've had in sparring and the higher drop out rate.? More proof resides only in my ego.> > > Zeishe> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550 F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:59:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Dojang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You hit the nail on the head Dave. There are 2 kinds of martial arts. Good teachers and bad teachers. All traditional martial arts have value if one learns the complete art. But it is the teacher that makes the difference. Those of us who have been around-a-while have seen countless high dan who aren't even good enough to wear a green belt. We have also seen some who are significantly under ranked and have no interest in additional rank. I have sent students who moved to other arts, because of a specific teacher. So essentially, there are 2 types of martial arts, good teachers and bad teachers. As teachers our job is to teach the complete art, if we don't, who will? JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: michael tomlinson To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Dojang Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:39:03 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere, Well Said!! I couldn't agree more...Michael Tomlinson> From: hapkido@far.midco.net> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:59:38 -0500> Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Dojang> > You hit the nail on the head Dave. There are 2 kinds of martial arts. Good> teachers and bad teachers. All traditional martial arts have value if one> learns the complete art. But it is the teacher that makes the difference.> Those of us who have been around-a-while have seen countless high dan who> aren't even good enough to wear a green belt. We have also seen some who are> significantly under ranked and have no interest in additional rank. I have> sent students who moved to other arts, because of a specific teacher. So> essentially, there are 2 types of martial arts, good teachers and bad> teachers. As teachers our job is to teach the complete art, if we don't, who> will? JRH www.rrhapkido.com> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:39:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ahhhh this is really what my main point was about TKD, especially ITF TKD. If you just look through the TKD encyclopedia you'll see training methods not found in too many schools nowadays. Also techniques hand weapons etc.   Jye --- On Tue, 9/23/08, J R Hilland wrote: As teachers our job is to teach the complete art, if we don't, who will? JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:12:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Is it the style or the teacher? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with this. My mindset is more geared towards self defense so that's how my training is focused. I practice body conditioning with the typical calisthenics but also training like iron body training. Not to the point of severely changing my body, but so it can withstand combat should it come. In my younger years my expression of TKD was highly different then others for many reasons; 1) because I trained very hard and smart in preparation for the streets, 2) I used elements of my other training including conditioning methods and stance training 3) I crossed trained with my friends and compared TKD with what they were taught. I realized that my TKD training wasn't preparing me for things as simple as defense against a sweep so I used material from my other arts and/or from being in real fights. Fast forward to now, I've been converting the 15 volume set of the General's TKD books and I've found that the same method I use to block sweeps and low kicks (with the shin) IS INDEED included in the TKD encyclopedias. What this means is my teacher most likely didn't know therefore didn't teach it, and his teacher- the same issue probably.   So if we keep going on and on leaving out elements soon we're left with a shell of a MA. With that said, I realize not everyone studies the MA for self defense reasons, some train for health, some for the social network it provides. Needless to say, everyone can benefit from the hard training. It's only hard when you first begin.   Jye --- On Tue, 9/23/08, zisheged@aol.com wrote: Well...there is merit in saying that the type of training one gets depends on the teacher rather than the style. Who could argue that notwithstanding the quality of the Sensei, that Kyokushin Kai Karate is perforce more rigorous than TKD?? In my experience, all the ITF schools I've visited were far more rigorous in style demands as well as training. As I've previously noted, there are still good WTF schools that are not kiddy services. What makes my school a "real" school? It's the demands I place on weight and aerobic training. The successes we've had in sparring and the higher drop out rate.? More proof resides only in my ego. Zeishe --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest