Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:48:22 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #273 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Pain Distraction (Ray) 2. RE: Re: Pain Distraction (x x) 3. Re: Re: Pain Distraction (Ray) 4. Re: Re: Pain Distraction (steven riggs) 5. RE: Re: Pain Distraction (Jye nigma) 6. Re: Re: Pain Distraction (Jye nigma) 7. Re: Re: Pain Distraction (Scott) 8. Re:threat (Beungood8@aol.com) 9. Bad old training (zisheged@aol.com) 10. RE: Pain Distraction - Self-defense (aburrese@aol.com) 11. Re: Bad old training (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:06:54 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In states/countries that permit a citizen's arrest (not N. Carolina) I BELIEVE that you can only do it if you witness the person committing a felony. Laws vary. Are you confident the person committed a felony? Then find a cop to perform the arrest for you, on your behalf. Else I'm not sure a citizen's arrest is a prudent way to proceed. Check with a local attorney. Ray On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:30 PM, x x wrote: > Assuming that you have gained the upper > hand by disarming or disabling the attacker, you can then make a > citizen’s > arrest for the assault. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: x x To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:04:38 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray I'm not sure about being prudent but in response to the info about disarming the attacker and not doing anything else, I thought of the next steps that I might take. In California you must witness the crime but it can be a misdemeanor or a felony. Victims sometimes make good witnesses. Mako _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:27:16 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Victims usually make good witnesses, but they seldom make good arresters. Ray On Oct 9, 2008, at 5:04 PM, x x wrote: > Victims sometimes make good witnesses. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:27:07 -0700 (PDT) From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net     I believe in NC you can detain someone you have observed committing a felony. You are not actually arresting them as you are just holding them for the police. That is however a very dangerous practice and not one engaged on a whim.    I was a police officer and have on rare ocassions seen citizens holding someone for the police. One time when I arrived they saw me and immediately let the person up thinking he had surrendered. He had not and now wanted to run away or fight his way through me. It would have been so much easier if they had just held onto him till I got the cuffs on him.     A business having employees catching and detaining shoplifters is similar yet different. The employee is acting technically as the agent of the owner. Supreme Court decisions have recognized that the agent is not a law enforcement officer, but they do have certain powers allowing them to detain an individual. --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 7:06 PM In states/countries that permit a citizen's arrest (not N. Carolina) I BELIEVE that you can only do it if you witness the person committing a felony. Laws vary. Are you confident the person committed a felony? Then find a cop to perform the arrest for you, on your behalf. Else I'm not sure a citizen's arrest is a prudent way to proceed. Check with a local attorney. Ray On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:30 PM, x x wrote: > Assuming that you have gained the upper > hand by disarming or disabling the attacker, you can then make a > citizen˘s > arrest for the assault. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:03:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net yeah but sometimes at too high of a price.   Jye --- On Thu, 10/9/08, x x wrote: Victims sometimes make good witnesses. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:02:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net here in GA, you can hold someone until the police come. You can't shoot them, but the police said you can ruff them up a bit.   jye --- On Thu, 10/9/08, steven riggs wrote: From: steven riggs Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 8:27 PM     I believe in NC you can detain someone you have observed committing a felony. You are not actually arresting them as you are just holding them for the police. That is however a very dangerous practice and not one engaged on a whim.    I was a police officer and have on rare ocassions seen citizens holding someone for the police. One time when I arrived they saw me and immediately let the person up thinking he had surrendered. He had not and now wanted to run away or fight his way through me. It would have been so much easier if they had just held onto him till I got the cuffs on him.     A business having employees catching and detaining shoplifters is similar yet different. The employee is acting technically as the agent of the owner. Supreme Court decisions have recognized that the agent is not a law enforcement officer, but they do have certain powers allowing them to detain an individual. --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 7:06 PM In states/countries that permit a citizen's arrest (not N. Carolina) I BELIEVE that you can only do it if you witness the person committing a felony. Laws vary. Are you confident the person committed a felony? Then find a cop to perform the arrest for you, on your behalf. Else I'm not sure a citizen's arrest is a prudent way to proceed. Check with a local attorney. Ray On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:30 PM, x x wrote: > Assuming that you have gained the upper > hand by disarming or disabling the attacker, you can then make a > citizen˘s > arrest for the assault. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:01:50 -0400 From: Scott To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Pain Distraction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye nigma wrote: > My problem is how anyone can determine when the threat is over if they weren't there to see it. > In all the 50 states you have a right to defend yourself if you believe that you are in danger of severe bodily harm. You can even use lethal force to defend yourself. However in the original story (not all the hypothetical situations thought up thereafter) the person who was prosecuted made the statement to the police that he "had to get his licks in". By that statement he was indicating that he was no longer in fear of his own life but was trying to seek revenge on the other person. It doesn't matter who started it, at that point in time he was continuing the attack in order to hurt the other person not to protect himself. In all 50 states that would be considered assault.(well in Texas it might be a coin toss) ;-) So disregarding all the hypothetical situations that were raised (he has knife, a gun, a pipe), in the original situation as laid out from the snipp-it of a story that we had, yes the guy was guilty of assault. That's why I teach all my Self defense students to simply answer "He attacked me and I was in fear for my life."..."No I didn't realize he was unconscious I was scared he would kill me and was just trying to fight him off.".. "Knife wounds? Was that a knife? I was just hitting him with whatever I could get my hands, but now that you mention it I think there was a machete around here someplace." Scott --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:21:11 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:threat Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 10/9/2008 7:15:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: At that point is this guy not considered a threat? as I am doing a mag change after dumping the first one into him and am scanning the area for his accomplice.. **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) --__--__-- Message: 9 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:10:41 -0400 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Bad old training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I love to harken back to the "good" old days in the early 1960's when we trained so hard!? But...upon reflection...some of what we did was nonsensical and downright harmful. Striking the makiwara until our knuckles were bloody was pretty dumb. We risked blood born pathogens and infections. Striking trays of sand and pebbles...dumb.? Unpadded sparring where we all sported blood on our dobaks risked multiple diseases and more severe body trauma. Various forms of stretching that ripped cartilage also wasn't the smartest. True, we were pretty tough but so many guys from that period have arthritis and other issues. We train smarter now as a rule, a bit too easy in fact. We need much more imput from exercise professionals, sport medicine, kinesiologists and good trainers. Many of my students raise a stink when we have weight training and pool sparring and exercise. I get more cooperation from the little girls that come from dance class than from grown men. Americans as a whole are soft. We need that indominable spirit we learned about. Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:49:04 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Pain Distraction - Self-defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye was mad at a story I told about prosecuting a guy for assault.  I’ve used this story when teaching justified use of force classes at seminars with Marc MacYoung and a friend who is a FAM.  This story is also in the legal chapter of a book I’m working on.  Why?  Because you not only have to protect yourself from someone who might do you physical harm, but you must protect yourself from the courts as well.  In my first book, I mentioned how my friend Peyton Quinn told me about his “Stay out of jail” plan.  That’s a good idea.    Legally, self-defense is an affirmative defense.  You are admitting you hurt someone which is unlawful, but you claim you have a justified reason to do it.  That is why self-defense is also called justified use of force.    I no longer work in a prosecutor’s office.  But when I did, I was handed a file and told to try it.  That was my job, that’s what I did.    Jye said, “I hate the fact that someone who wasn't there can dictate whether a person was a threat or not.”   Remember, the police officer was there.  I had a police report, I interviewed the cop, and then had the cop testify on stand.  The cop saw the guy on the ground with the broken ankle.  The cop saw the other person kicking him while he was down with the broken ankle.  The guy told the cop, “I had to get my licks in.” The law enforcement officer saw all of this.  I took the facts given to me, and based on the law, prosecuted the person who was found guilty of assault.  He did not have a justified reason to kick the guy on the ground who had a broken ankle and was no longer a threat.   Jye, you might not be fond of the law, and I’ll tell you, there are many laws I disagree with as well.  However, as long as we are living in this society, we have to deal with the laws.  The reason I tell this story, and have it in the legal chapter of a book I’m working on, is to help people realize that there are legal consequences for violence, and I try to make people understand how they can keep themselves out of jail as well as out of the hospital.  You won’t find someone more pro self-defense than I.  Why do you think I teach, write, speak, do dvds, etc. on Hapkido and Self-defense.  But I think it would be negligent on my part to teach “kill em all and let God sort them out” knowing that that kind of attitude may put someone behind bars.  I want people safe, but I want them out of jail too.   Different states will vary regarding the self-defense laws, but the Model Penal Code provides, “a person is justified in the use of force against an aggressor when and to the extent it appears to him and he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another again st such aggressor’s imminent use of unlawful force.  One who is not the aggressor in an encounter is justified in using a reasonable amount of force against his adversary when he reasonably believes: a) that he is in immediate danger of unlawful bodily harm from his adversary and b) that the use of such force is necessary to avoid this danger.    My buddy the FAM in our presentations (we have co-taught this stuff in CO a few times) always makes people aware that they must be able to articulate to the law enforcement officer they were in fear for their life.  Creating witnesses also works in your favor.  (that’s a whole longer topic)  Telling a police officer “I had to get my licks in” as the guy I prosecuted did, is not only dumb, but STUPID.  That’s another reason why I advocate you don’t talk to cops.  Wait for your lawyer.  (That’s a whole different part of the chapter as well)  And yes, it can be a good idea to know a good defense attorney, and even have one on retainer just in case.   Jye, yes – must do what you have to do to survive!  I told my class last night that you must have the attitude of survival and do what is necessary to make sure you go home.  I used the guy who killed the bear with a large stick as an example of that attitude.  (If you didn’t read about that, do a google search.  Guy was attacked by a bear and killed it by=2 0pounding on the bear’s head with a stick)   However – You must also be able to articulate your actions to police (with your lawyer) and possibly to a jury or judge if it goes that far.  (If you do a good enough job with the police, it probably won’t be prosecuted.  Prosecutors don’t want cases they will lose.  With the facts I had, the cop seeing the downed guy not fighting, the comment about getting his licks in, etc.  I had a softball lobbed my direction.  Pretty tough to lose that one.   That’s the point of that story.  Protect yourself on both fronts.  From bad guys, and from the Courts.  This was just a quick response this morning.  I’ll have a lot more in the legal chapter of my next book. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:47:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bad old training To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yeah sounds like a mixture of foolishness and lack of proper training. The sand and pebbles is actually excellent training IF done correctly. In my snake fist boxing, sand is pierced with the fingers (think TKD spearhand). Striking a board until your hand is bloody is bad training as well. The hand will reinforce itself with moderate impact to the area. Hell just handling heavy equipment will increase the density of the hand. Bad stretching, self explanatory. If it hurts bad it can't be good. Nowadays we have proper information about the body and we can still be "tuff" yet smart in our training.   Jye --- On Fri, 10/10/08, zisheged@aol.com wrote: From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Bad old training To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 7:10 AM I love to harken back to the "good" old days in the early 1960's when we trained so hard!? But...upon reflection...some of what we did was nonsensical and downright harmful. Striking the makiwara until our knuckles were bloody was pretty dumb. We risked blood born pathogens and infections. Striking trays of sand and pebbles...dumb.? Unpadded sparring where we all sported blood on our dobaks risked multiple diseases and more severe body trauma. Various forms of stretching that ripped cartilage also wasn't the smartest. True, we were pretty tough but so many guys from that period have arthritis and other issues. We train smarter now as a rule, a bit too easy in fact. We need much more imput from exercise professionals, sport medicine, kinesiologists and good trainers. Many of my students raise a stink when we have weight training and pool sparring and exercise. I get more cooperation from the little girls that come from dance class than from grown men. Americans as a whole are soft. We need that indominable spirit we learned about. Zeishe _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest