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From the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Tue Nov 25 10:42:58 2008 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id mAPGgv500619 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:42:57 -0600 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079D2B282BE; Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:24:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:23:05 +0100 Message-ID: <20081125182305.10568.10361.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #317 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Flexible Weapons (Bert Edens) 2. RE: Re: Dan Skipping/Tradition (Thomas Gordon) 3. To dress or not to dress (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Re: Time in rank and traditions (zisheged@aol.com) 5. RE: Re: Dan Skipping/Tradition (Rick Clark) 6. Re: The belt (Beungood8@aol.com) 7. Re: Re: Time in rank and traditions (Jye nigma) 8. (no subject) (Robert Wood) 9. Re: RE: Flexible Weapons (Jye nigma) 10. RE: Live in the UK? (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 11. traditional attire (J R Hilland) 12. RE: (no subject) (michael tomlinson) 13. RE: Re: Dan Skipping/Tradition (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Bert Edens" To: Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:45:56 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Flexible Weapons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, Jye... I would be open to any source of information, whether it be KMA or otherwise. Anything that can give me more information! Thanks again for your time! *bows* - Bert > -----Original Message----- > Are you looking to stay within KMA? or are you interested in > any MA flexible weapons training? >   > Jye --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Dan Skipping/Tradition Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 17:49:18 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Old argument about rank and necessity of rank. As I've said every time I've heard to argument, rank is like money. Those that say money isn't important either don't have it, have plenty of it, or had it and found the cost to be too great. In many ways, rank is also like college education, I don't need a college degree to DO my job...but I need the diploma to prove that I am a contender to GET the job. Case in point is a good buddy of mine that had 15 years training but never earned his black belt due to required travel. He is a very solid instructor but without a black belt, not many would be willing to train under him. Question, we're going into battle and you don't know anyone there. You find an E-1 Private with 20 years experience wanting to lead and you find an O-5 Lt. Colonel with 20 years wanting to lead - who do you follow? I don't know about you, but I'm behind the light colonel. No offense to the E-1, but he's either quiet inept or been busted too many times to gain rank. While I appreciate the utopia world where rank doesn't matter, I don't know that it would ever work in any larger setting where more than a dozen or so people train. On "open floor" days, most of us wear t-shirts and no belts. Outside of that, we wear martial art uniforms. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 3 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:41:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] To dress or not to dress Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael writes: <> Hello Michael et all. Most folks who have seen me work a seminar will no doubt have noticed I too do not dress in a Dobok until the formalities begin. I work best when I am comfortable, and most places I go to conduct seminars are waaayyy hotter than Canada. So, to give folks the best I can, I get comfy lol. For the rest of things martial arts such as testing etc., I like to keep tradition. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 19:46:40 -0500 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Time in rank and traditions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well...there is always good reason to break any tradition. Those of us that won't budge on this issue help keep the identity of taekwondo real. The only reason we keep belts and dobaks etc is to prevent forms and moves to become random.? Personally, I'd love to see the development of a purely American martial art which draws from our American experience. No belts or doboks or symbols of rank. I'd like to see mastery in combat areas such as in the water, close quarters, with random objects as weapons etc. Once in a while the Asian prospective seems too removed for me although I still love it after 45 years. Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:15:16 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Dan Skipping/Tradition To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Thomas, > From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] > Old argument about rank and necessity of rank. As I've said every time I've heard to argument, rank is like money. Those that say money isn't > important either don't have it, have plenty of it, or had it and found the cost to be too great. [Rick] You are right, in a lot of respects, and I do agree with you about rank. I would like to add a couple of points: Rank really is not important unless you are an instructor and then it does become important for the Yellow Pages and other advertising purposes. Rank is useful as a motivational tool for students and even senior instructors. Rank is useless because there is not really a standard for skills, ability, and knowledge even in the same associations. Look at the difference between an 18 year old and a 60 year old getting the same rank. Do you really think they will have the same physical ability? Heck, differences are apparent when you travel from country to country. Speaking of which - time in grade seems to be different between various countries. Sure there may be a standard for the major associations, but individual instructors will set different standards for their students. Rank does not mean anything if you have to defend yourself on the street. For that matter rank does not mean much if you go to a tournament. For example, what happens if you have a person come into your school to take classes and is already a black belt. But then you take them to a tournament and he is ranked as a green belt in your school. How fair would it be for them to enter a sparing competition as a green belt? Rank put you in a position of authority over others and you are also in a subservient position unless you happen to be the head of the organization. Rank can be used as a "carrot on the end of a stick" for someone who wants to advance in rank. Or it could be the "club" to knock you over the head. Probably one of my larger mistakes I have made in my martial arts training was refusing a promotion offered to me in Korea back in the 60's. I was young and naďve and thought that doing this showed my loyalty to my instructor back home and to the head of our associations. Stupid of me, and if I could go back and change things I sure would take that promotion. So - my little bit of advice - if you are ever offered a promotion - TAKE IT! Never ever turn down a promotion. You never know when and if it may become important to you. All in all I could go on for days about rank the good and bad points....... Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > Thomas Gordon --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 01:37:24 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/24/2008 7:12:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Some have gone to wearing unmarked belts but I've gone a bit further. I don't wear a belt at all. I teach in a hanbok and train in hanbok britches with a school t-shirt. Simplicity to me is key. Everything else is decoration and not value added (though it certainly adds value to school coffers). Thoughts? Frank I agree, I train mainly in t shirt and dobock bottoms or Muay Thai or MMA shorts. I also on occasion train in street clothes with boots and vary the terrain I train on. **************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com today!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212962939x1200825291/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp %26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001) --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 00:56:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Time in rank and traditions To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You know something interesting? When we think of martial arts and/or warriors we always think of japan, china, africa, etc. But we seem to forget that there was a time when the early americans were punks. they did boxing (forgot the name Queens something), fencing, and I think wrestling. Then we have to remember the duels. Now I think before the pistol they were dueling with swords. That's only considering the europeans in america that's not even considering the native american's fighting methods or the africans in america.   Jye --- On Mon, 11/24/08, zisheged@aol.com wrote: From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Time in rank and traditions To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 7:46 PM Well...there is always good reason to break any tradition. Those of us that won't budge on this issue help keep the identity of taekwondo real. The only reason we keep belts and dobaks etc is to prevent forms and moves to become random.? Personally, I'd love to see the development of a purely American martial art which draws from our American experience. No belts or doboks or symbols of rank. I'd like to see mastery in combat areas such as in the water, close quarters, with random objects as weapons etc. Once in a while the Asian prospective seems too removed for me although I still love it after 45 years. Zeishe _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Robert Wood To: Dojang Digest Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:19:40 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here is the deal…in speaking to time in grade (TIG) for Dan ranking; it is something that will allow us (instructors) to measure loyalty and perseverance. Skill is arbitrary at best. There are individuals who are my peers in ranking that can jump high and kick faster; some of those who can best me in kicking do not hand my hand speed or my self-defense experience. So the question is who is really authorized to hold the rank? The answer is all of us. Back in the Renaissance period a master craftsman would take on an apprentice to teach their craft. The apprentice would need to prove their loyalty to the master craftsman before the master would share their secrets. The martial arts are no different. The apprentice (gup/keup) will need to prove their loyalty and perseverance to the martial arts master craftsman in order to learn more. Moving from the gup/keup into the Dan ranks means the individual had learned the BASICS. The information flow slows to test loyalty and perseverance before they are handed advanced knowledge/techniques. Belt-no belt; TIG –no TIG; the real issue is authenticity. Not the kind you get from a document or certificate; but from pouring yourself into your art and your students. There are always going to be those who hold a position of trust and use it to hustle others; doctors, lawyers; police; pastors; teachers; and etc. It is up to those in the profession with integrity to stand together and shine a light on the unsavory practices; not to stand and proclaim themselves to the only holder on the right way. in His service, Rob Wood Knowing is not enough, you must apply...Willing is not enough, you must do. -- Bruce LeeI am careful not confuse excellence with perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business -- Michael J. FoxThe path of the Warrior is life long, and mastery is often simply staying the path. -- Richard Strozzi-Heckler _________________________________________________________________ Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the “I’m a PC” Messenger themepack now. hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:32:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Flexible Weapons To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.wle.com//products/VHG17W.html   http://www.wle.com//products/VHG17W.html   http://www.wle.com/products/VSL27W.html   http://www.wle.com//products/VSL29W.html   --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Bert Edens wrote: From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Flexible Weapons To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 5:45 PM Greetings, Jye... I would be open to any source of information, whether it be KMA or otherwise. Anything that can give me more information! Thanks again for your time! *bows* - Bert > -----Original Message----- > Are you looking to stay within KMA? or are you interested in > any MA flexible weapons training? >   > Jye _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Live in the UK? Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:05:07 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you very much for that. I will check it out when I get home. I have very limited surf access here. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:thedojang@sbcglobal.net] Sent: 24 November 2008 22:39 To: The_Dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] Live in the UK? http://londonkoreanlinks.net/ _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:23:45 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] traditional attire Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here in the north pole (aka North Dakota) we will often wear 4 or 5 dobok at once. Got to layer your clothing. Not those thin little rip-me-when-you-grab kind mind you, but the heavy (easy-for-a-good-choke) yudo style dobok. It is kind of nice, you take a hard fall and just bounce back on your feet with all that padding. So Michael, when you take a fall, with all the heat and humidity, does your skin stick to the mats like Velcro? :) <<>> --__--__-- Message: 12 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:26:55 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Nice post....I couldn't agree more....all trades have apprenticeship programs...electricians, graphic designers, carpenters, etc...bottom line is..if you don't want to put the time in...hit the road because the fact that you don't want to put the time in tells the true tale of who you are...Michael Tomlinson > From: robwood@live.com> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 09:19:40 -0600> Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject)> > Here is the deal…in speaking to time in grade (TIG) for Dan ranking; it is> something that will allow us (instructors) to measure loyalty and> perseverance. Skill is arbitrary at best. There are individuals who are my> peers in ranking that can jump high and kick faster; some of those who can> best me in kicking do not hand my hand speed or my self-defense experience.> So the question is who is really authorized to hold the rank? The answer is> all of us. Back in the Renaissance period a master craftsman would take on an> apprentice to teach their craft. The apprentice would need to prove their> loyalty to the master craftsman before the master would share their secrets.> The martial arts are no different. The apprentice (gup/keup) will need to> prove their loyalty and perseverance to the martial arts master craftsman in> order to learn more. Moving from the gup/keup into the Dan ranks means the> individual had learned the BASICS. The information flow slows to test loyalty> and perseverance before they are handed advanced knowledge/techniques.> Belt-no belt; TIG –no TIG; the real issue is authenticity. Not the kind you> get from a document or certificate; but from pouring yourself into your art> and your students. There are always going to be those who hold a position of> trust and use it to hustle others; doctors, lawyers; police; pastors;> teachers; and etc. It is up to those in the profession with integrity to> stand together and shine a light on the unsavory practices; not to stand and> proclaim themselves to the only holder on the right way. in His> service, Rob Wood Knowing is not enough, you must apply...Willing is not> enough, you must do. -- Bruce LeeI am careful not confuse excellence with> perfection. Excellence I can reach for; perfection is God's business --> Michael J. FoxThe path of the Warrior is life long, and mastery is often> simply staying the path. -- Richard Strozzi-Heckler> _________________________________________________________________> Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the “I’m a PC” Messenger themepack> now.> hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 13 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Dan Skipping/Tradition Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:35:47 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick I feel what you are saying with a lot of your post but I also noticed that on your website everyone in every photo is wearing a belt and every instructor states what belt rank they are right under their names..so obviously rank is quite important in your organization or it appears to be...Michael Tomlinson > Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:15:16 -0500> From: rick.aodenkou@verizon.net> Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Dan Skipping/Tradition> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> > Hi Thomas,> > > From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com]> > > Old argument about rank and necessity of rank. As I've said every time> I've heard to argument, rank is like money. Those that say money isn't> > important either don't have it, have plenty of it, or had it and found the> cost to be too great.> [Rick] You are right, in a lot of respects, and I do agree with you about> rank.> > I would like to add a couple of points:> > Rank really is not important unless you are an instructor and then it does> become important for the Yellow Pages and other advertising purposes.> > Rank is useful as a motivational tool for students and even senior> instructors.> > Rank is useless because there is not really a standard for skills, ability,> and knowledge even in the same associations. Look at the difference between> an 18 year old and a 60 year old getting the same rank. Do you really think> they will have the same physical ability? Heck, differences are apparent> when you travel from country to country.> > Speaking of which - time in grade seems to be different between various> countries. Sure there may be a standard for the major associations, but> individual instructors will set different standards for their students.> > Rank does not mean anything if you have to defend yourself on the street.> For that matter rank does not mean much if you go to a tournament. For> example, what happens if you have a person come into your school to take> classes and is already a black belt. But then you take them to a tournament> and he is ranked as a green belt in your school. How fair would it be for> them to enter a sparing competition as a green belt?> > Rank put you in a position of authority over others and you are also in a> subservient position unless you happen to be the head of the organization.> > Rank can be used as a "carrot on the end of a stick" for someone who wants> to advance in rank. Or it could be the "club" to knock you over the head.> > Probably one of my larger mistakes I have made in my martial arts training> was refusing a promotion offered to me in Korea back in the 60's. I was> young and naďve and thought that doing this showed my loyalty to my> instructor back home and to the head of our associations. Stupid of me, and> if I could go back and change things I sure would take that promotion. So -> my little bit of advice - if you are ever offered a promotion - TAKE IT!> Never ever turn down a promotion. You never know when and if it may become> important to you.> > All in all I could go on for days about rank the good and bad points.......> > Rick Clark> www.ao-denkou-kai.org> > > > > > Thomas Gordon> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Proud to be a PC? Show the world. Download the “I’m a PC” Messenger themepack now. hthttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642558/direct/01/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest