Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:17:00 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #319 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Rank and time (zisheged@aol.com) 2. Keeping Taekwondo "real" (Frank Clay) 3. RE: dan rank (Rick Clark) 4. joint recovery? (James O'Connor) 5. RE: dan rank (michael tomlinson) 6. straight from Zomunda! lol (Jye nigma) 7. Re: joint recovery? (Jye nigma) 8. RE: dan rank (Rick Clark) 9. Re: joint recovery? (Jeff Hazen) 10. Time in Rank (Gordon Okerstrom) 11. dan rank and dobok (J R Hilland) 12. USAT Announces Historic Kukkiwon Special Dan Testing (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:27:39 -0500 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank and time Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One reason for time in rank is that ostensibly it takes many years to be a master. I have found that when?I get a real atletic kid and he learns his forms quickly, I will allow him to ship a color belt. More often, I have given tips on belts to kids who do poorly, I try not to fail kids. Black belt on the other hand is a very big deal. No skips there. But...I once skipped someone from 1st to third dan because he won the tri-state championship and was an incredible athelete. If I had to do it again, I wouldn't have skipped him in rank but made him an "associate instructor".? I hasten to remind everyone here that in New York we have a Korean instructor that came to America a 5th dan and became a 9th dan 6 months later. Case closed. Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Frank Clay To: the_dojang Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 19:40:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Keeping Taekwondo "real" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Zeishe, Taekwondo wears a dobok which decended from the gi. that was in effect underwear. Taekwondo is a 20th century invention and the uniform settled upon by committee. How is that "real"? I like training the way I do because I'm comfortable and its not done for tradition but to keep the student focused on why they are really there. to learn, not to get rank, which is an external and superficial construct. I like many here have had the misfortune of having to use martial art to defend myself. It worked, I survived, no one was seriously hurt and the perp is in jail. That is real. Frankly, I think that you should train in a variety of environs. I sincerely doubt if you ever have to fight, you'll be in a nice loose dobok on a padded or very smooth surface designd to help you learn. You will likely be on the street changing a tire, in the rain wearing jeans sticking to you. One of my teachers, Pak, Ho sik recommended training in different ways wearing different things. So did Dan Insonato (sp?), members of the Blue House body guards and countless others. Please don't insinuate that these people are somehow being disloyal to their art or their students. They aren't. They are doing what works for them, researching and passing knowledge on. Frank --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:31:18 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dan rank To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi JR, > From: J R Hilland [mailto:hapkido@far.midco.net] > To quote GM West: "You can tell how hard an instructor has worked for his rank by how hard he makes others work to get it." > > Jere R. Hilland > www.rrhapkido.com [Rick] I think I would have to disagree with this statement, rather strongly to be perfectly honest. Here is why: I have been in the MA long enough to remember when the first Sifu openly taught non-Chinese in San Francisco. I can remember, and have seen how individuals can go from no rank to 1st dan in one year in Korea, Japan, or Okinawa. Further, I know instructors who came back with a 1st dan like this and taught for years staying at 1st dan and their students not progressing to 1st dan. Or when someone made their 2nd dan after waiting 5,6,7, or more years. All the time training students who had been at 2nd or 1st Kyu/Kup for 4 or more years, and then forced to take the same time in grade as their instructor who had to fight to get to their 2nd dan. Now take that student and put him out teaching someplace and he will not progress his students as fast as he was tested just because HE had to work that hard to get his 1st dan. Everyone knows you can get your rank quicker in Korea, Japan, or Okinawa and all of us have seen instructors fly to the US from Korea and jump several grades. Heck I know of one Korean here in my state who NEVER had rank but was set up in a Dochang by a high rank instructor to teach. He would come down each weekend and teach his 5th dan student what a white belt needed to know and in turn the "5th dan" taught that for the rest of the week to his students. By the way they had signed long term contracts at a healthy fee to be taught by this "master". Sure there are guys out there that scam the system and who do not have the skills that many of us would deem appropriate for their rank - but then there are guys out there that have been at the same rank for years that should be higher and personally I would not have a problem for folks like that to be moved faster through the ranks to get them to the place they should be with rank. So all in all I don't really believe if you have had to go through unreasonable hoops you should do the same to your students just because you had to do it. Nor should we in the west make our students wait longer for rank than the would have to do in the East. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 4 From: James O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:41:39 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] joint recovery? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was wondering if there was anything you can use to treat joints (mostly wrists) after a night of hoshinsul. I already do Glucosamine/ Chondroitin/MSM for general joint health but just curious if I could do anything to help recovery after a good nights practice for me and my older children who train with me (advil? warm water soaking? anything to rub?) Thanks, Jay --__--__-- Message: 5 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dan rank Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 04:28:51 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't think Jere is promoting people jumping through unreasonable hoops...I think he is saying that you should pay your dues through proper practice and time in rank...and we all know of instances where this or that happened for the better or worse...I'm saying that time in rank is a common denominator for how it should be modeled...it's kind of like when you talk to people about wearing seat belts...people always have a story of how they know someone who IF they were wearing a seat belt would have drowned in a lake or choked themselves to death or not of been able to get out of the burning car....BUT the common denominator is that if you wear a seat belt you are much safer then not...IF you spend time in rank and practice hard you are much better in HKD...and I agree with Jere about giving rank away causes the dominoe effect of not caring about who you give it to...time in rank as I have been taught is basically the same amount of years in between each dan rank....2nd dan=two years...3rd dan=three years etc...that's how it should work...but I know....that really messes up a lot of people when it comes to getting the quick gratification....too friggin bad.. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious email. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_safety_1 12008 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:18:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] straight from Zomunda! lol Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OMG!!!! TKD's rep has been tarnished forever! LMAOhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0Y8M4lc6i4&feature=related --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:20:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] joint recovery? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Start using a good Jow (dit da jow). Before class rub it in and after class. ALWAYS be sure to wash your hands after using jow.   Jye --- On Tue, 11/25/08, James O'Connor wrote: From: James O'Connor Subject: [The_Dojang] joint recovery? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 11:41 PM I was wondering if there was anything you can use to treat joints (mostly wrists) after a night of hoshinsul. I already do Glucosamine/ Chondroitin/MSM for general joint health but just curious if I could do anything to help recovery after a good nights practice for me and my older children who train with me (advil? warm water soaking? anything to rub?) Thanks, Jay _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:54:24 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dan rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael, I have a question for you about time in rank, and a real life example of why I have a problem with setting standards for "time in rank". ...time in rank as I have been taught is basically the same amount of years in between each dan rank....2nd dan=two years...3rd dan=three years etc...that's how it should work...but I know....that really messes up a lot of people when it comes to getting the quick gratification....too friggin bad..                                         Â Â Â  Michael Tomlinson Ok - let's keep it simple on this and not go into some great detail. You are saying that it should take two years between 1st and 2nd dan. That would be 730 days or 104 weeks. How many days per week does the person train and how many hours per day? Let's say for argument sake they practice 1 hour per class and 1 class per day. That gives us a possible 730 hours of training in that two year period of time. I don't see the average person training 7 days per week more like 2 or 3 times per week, and I suspect most people will take at least two weeks vacation per year and probably another week or two for Christmas holiday, New Years, and perhaps a few days of being sick. Let's drop another week of training so now we are at 294 days of training per year or 294 hours of training. Sound reasonable? Ok now what if someone put in two hours of training per session that would be 142 days of training in something that could be done with 3 days a week, 2 hours a practice, in 49 weeks. So you could have two people on two different training schedules. One would have the required hours of training yet one would take 1 year and the other 2 years. Going a bit further if a person trained 6 days a week 2 hours a day, they would have the same amount of training in 6 months. So, you now could have 3 people with the same exact amount of floor time but one would take 6 months, the 2nd 1 year, and the 3rd 2 years. Is one more qualified due to "time in grade" to go from 1st to 2nd dan? All things being equal I would put my money on the person training for 6 months - 4 hours a day to have sharper skills than the person that does it for an hour at a time 2 or 3 times a week. I know a person who started as a rank white belt and decided to go for it - this was his schedule. Got to the gym at 9 am and trained till 1. Lunch from 1 till 2, and back at the gym practicing till 4:30. Then from 6 to 10:30 help his instructor and eventually helped teach white belts. He was putting in 5 or 6 days a week doing this That would be in the area of 10 hours or so of practice per day, and at the least 5 days a week. That's 50 hours a week, or in 6 weeks he would have put in the same as of 2 years of training. So in 6 months I saw him go from a white belt to a brown belt in 6 months, and to be honest he would have been able to have taken a 1st dan test with no problem. Now I have to be honest you don't see someone train like this very often, but it does happen. So does years of being in a grade really mean that much? Do you really think there is quick gratification for this person who put in such hours? What would you say if I had told you that I know a person who went from white belt to being ready to test for their 1st dan in 6 months but did not tell you how many hours per day they trained? Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:39:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Hazen To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] joint recovery? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You can try contrasting hydrotherapy (wraps, soaking, or running water): 2 minutes of hot 30 seconds of cold 2 minutes of hot 30 seconds of cold 2 minutes of hot You don't get a lot of blood flow to your wrists, so it takes them longer to recover than, say, sore muscles; the constrasting hot/cold will help with that. Try to do it 1-2 times/day without skipping days until they feel back to normal (and then for a few extra days wouldn't hurt, either). Regular supplements of Vitamin C (or your favorite means of getting antioxidants, like blueberries, etc) and Calcium seem to help. Definitely keep up the Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM, too. I am not a doctor, YMMV. ~ Jeff On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, James O'Connor had this to say: > I was wondering if there was anything you can use to treat joints > (mostly wrists) after a night of hoshinsul. I already do Glucosamine/ > Chondroitin/MSM for general joint health but just curious if I could > do anything to help recovery after a good nights practice for me and > my older children who train with me (advil? warm water soaking? > anything to rub?) > > Thanks, > Jay > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:41:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Time in Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We've spoken about the physical prowess of someone who has trained "X" amount of hours but, what about the mental judgment abilities and the spiritual growth that takes place over time? We can train our bodies in a short amount of time but, can we train our minds just as quickly? Remember the physical changes that came about as you went through the ranks? You not only became faster, more accurate with better control but, your reaction time grew shorter and your choice of weapon and technique grew to be familiar and comfortable. The complex combination of breathing, focus, timing, speed, rotation, distance and balance became second nature. There are also mental and spiritual changes that occur. Mentally, you see farther into the future. Now, you can see where circumstances are headed and can alter the course of your life. We see the confrontation coming and avoid it. We are more aware of our surroundings than the average sheep. We see the look in the eye of the wolf and prepare. Spiritually, we grow to be more responsible. The tenants, the oath, the respect given in bowing to seniors, the "yes sir, yes ma'am", the culture of mentoring your juniors all builds a more morally responsible being. We are more honest, more true to ourselves. We develop a care or concern for our juniors and a sense of responsibility to them and subsequently to our larger family, mankind. We espouse the virtues of our tenants, with honor, humility and tradition. We do not become just a well trained fighting machine, we become an honorable warrior. With great power comes great responsibility. Can this mental and spiritual growth occur in a shorter time as well? I think not. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:36:11 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] dan rank and dobok Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Worth repeating yet a 3rd time! Why will some, and we see this very often globally, put the time in one art and not another? I hold rank in several other arts but I don't teach them, so I don't advertise rank in them. But others, advertise rank in arts they don't even know anything about. Once, in Cincinnati, I walked into a dojang that advertised taekwondo, hapkido and judo. Told the instructor I held dan rank in all 3. He only knew anything about taekwondo, said the others were for advertising only. He didn't last long. <<>> You frighten me Michael. :) Fishnet dobok? Scary! But I like the goose down idea! :) I spent the first 40 years of my life in Texas, sticking (literally) to mats in a heavy dobok (no AC). Now after shoveling the driveway from a fresh snowstorm, my neighbors are scared when they see me practicing hard falls on the edge of the snow bank. Nothing like a 3 foot mat of powdered snow! But you really got to get airborne! <<>> Rick, you are not alone. There are many stories like that. Back 'in-the-old-days' I spent almost 9 years as a 4th dan, for much the same reasons. We called it affectionately, the Korean shuffle. Now, all of my friends my age with my experience and much less even, are a dan higher than I, some two. But I do not hold any animosity towards the system, just the abuses in the system. Over the years, I have even turned down dan and double dan from those who are not my teacher. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com Happy Thanksgiving! --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:27:27 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] USAT Announces Historic Kukkiwon Special Dan Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net USAT Announces Historic Kukkiwon Special Dan Testing USA Taekwondo, The USAT Martial Arts Commission and Kukkiwon are pleased to announce the planning of an unprecedented Special Dan Rank Promotion testing event. This testing opportunity will apply to all Kukkiwon ranks from 1st-7th Dan, as may be appropriate for the applicant. This opportunity is only being offered through USA Taekwondo (National Governing Body.) The special promotion tests will apply to the following categories of taekwondo practitioners. 1. Kukkiwon Rank Recognition Test: Those who have never received a Kukkiwon Dan rank but who have received a Dan rank from a credible taekwondo organization or credible Master/Grandmaster Instructor and are seeking Kukkiwon recognition of the rank they have achieved. 2. Skip Dan Test: Those who hold a Kukkiwon Dan rank, but who missed the opportunity (on more than one occasion) to test for subsequent Kukkiwon Dan ranks and would like to bring their Kukkiwon Dan current and will need to skip one or more Dan ranks (up to three ranks) to do so. 3. Time Reduction Test: Those who wish to test for a higher rank, but whose age or time in the current rank do not meet Kukkiwon standards, may test if their overall training and experience otherwise satisfies Kukkiwon's requirements. Kukkiwon will hold a mandatory 12-16 hour Poomsae seminar on the 13th and 14th of February during the U.S. Open in Las Vegas, with testing to occur either later on the 14th or on the morning of the 15th. All applicants shall submit a resume of their martial arts history, complete the Kukkiwon forms, and where applicable submit a copy of their current Dan rank certificate. In addition, 4th Dan to 7th Dan applicants must take the seminar and a physical test, and must submit a thesis on a topic to be assigned. "This is an unprecedented and exciting opportunity for Masters to achieve their deserved Kukkiwon ranks," said USAT CEO David Askinas. "We are hoping to receive a positive response from the taekwondo community so we can schedule the testing event in Las Vegas at U.S. Open." USAT will be posting application forms guidelines on this website, http://cl.exct.net/?ju=fe3416717066027b741771&ls=fdf912707366077871117775&m=fefd1370756c07&l=fe8f167374630d7577&s=fdf715727c600d7e71117177&jb=ffcf14&t= . We will want your current Kukkiwon Rank, your desired rank, and a letter detailing the reasons why you believe your promotion is justified. The applications will be reviewed by USAT and the Martial Arts Commissions for acceptability and forwarded to Kukkiwon for final review. Applicants who meet all necessary requirements to qualify for testing will receive notice of approval their application in advance of the test date. "This is a remarkable and rare opportunity to make Taekwondo history," added Martial Arts Commission Chairman Grand Master JP Choi. "Every eligible Taekwondo Dan holder in the USA should embrace this moment with enthusiasm and apply for promotion without delay. The chance may never come again." Fees for testing will be charged in the following manner and are due at the time the application is received. An applicant will be charged for a maximum of three Dan rank tests regardless of the number of ranks involved in the test. For example, if an applicant is applying for the new Kukkiwon Rank Recognition Test or seeking a Skip Dan Test, he/she will be charged only for the three highest rank test fees. For example, a 3d Dan seeking 7th Dan would pay fees only for 5th, 6th, and 7th Dan. Similarly, an applicant seeking a Rank Recognition test for 7th Dan, will also only pay test fees for the three highest testing ranks (in this case, 5th, 6th, and 7th Dan-). If only one or two rank promotions are being sought, the applicant will be charged for those requested ranks. The planned test is conditioned upon 70 approved physical test (4th-7th Dan and/ or those who are skipping three Dans) applications from Kukkiwon. It is important that all applicants submit their applications and other materials not later than January 10, 2009. USAT and the Martial Arts Commission will promptly review the applications and submit them to Kukkiwon. Kukkiwon will issue notice of approval in time for travel arrangements to be made. Should the test not go forward in Las Vegas in February, the back up plan is to hold it in July in conjunction with the Junior Olympics and Senior Nationals which will be held in Austin, Texas. Another special testing opportunity for 8th and 9th Dan will be offered later in 2009 by the Kukkiwon if all applicants meet the Kukkiwon requirements. Please address all questions to USAT CEO David Askinas david.askinas@usa-taekwondo.us or Grandmaster Joon Pyo Choi, Co-Chairman of the USAT Martial Arts Commission jpchoi@moogong.com. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest