Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 02:48:23 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #345 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) (Rick Clark) 2. Re: Re: Re: The real benefits of poomse by Jeff Finley (Jye nigma) 3. RE: Re: The real benefits of poomse (Thomas Gordon) 4. Grats Bernard - USAT List (Frank Clay) 5. Benefit of poomse (Donald) 6. Re: Re: The real benefits of poomse (James O'Connor) 7. Acta Koreana Vol. 11, No. 3 (Ray) 8. RE: Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 9. RE: Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:07:45 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi J. Lee, On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Lee Morgan wrote: After all, even though the TKD forms are relatively new, most of the movements that make up the forms are VERY old.  The fact that they are so old and yet are still around, and common to almost every martial style leads me to believe that there are many aspects to these movements that are not being taught in most TKD schools today. The basic problem is that the Korean masters that developed the forms have little or no idea what is involved with the forms for self-defense. I base this on several things - the first and foremost is that you don't see Korean "masters" teaching applications of forms that would actually work. What is shown and what they teach are simplistic - and IMHO not very practical. IF they had some better ideas I would be willing to bet my last dollar they would be all over the magazines and DVD market trying to make some extra cash, and they would have been doing it for a long time now. I have had personal contact with any number of Korean masters over the years, one in particular was Son Duk Son, and was able to see first hand what they taught and none of them taught any integration between forms and self-defense applications. I have had one of my friends ask directly Choi Hong Hi about applications, in particular "down block" and his response was - block front kick. When he pressed him if there was any other possible application he became a bit irate and said quite strongly - block front kick. I am in a unique position in that I have been able to see lots of martial artists around the world. In a short version I have been teaching seminars in Australia, Belgium, Canada, England, France, Germany, Sweden, Scotland, Norway, New Zealand, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Wales, and the USA for around 17 or 18 years. It would have been interesting to have counted the number of people I have seen over the years, but there have been thousands. So I have a rather good idea on what people are teaching when it comes to self-defense applications in forms. Are there people teaching practical applications that would work? Sure, but there are not that many out there doing so, although there are more in the past 20 years than there were before that time. There are a few of us out there that have been preaching this to the world, and I am sure many of you know the names. None of them are Korean masters...... Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:08:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of poomse by Jeff Finley To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my opinion, TKD forms were/are created witha WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) frame of mind; lack of deeper science. When you look at a chinese form to the untrained eye it looks pretty and flowery but within that form is the deepest of knowledge about that system; everything from proper skeletal alignment, bridge & root development, breathing, linkage, etc. It's my opinion that the forms of TKD lack deeper meanings for what reason? I'm not sure, could be for many reasons. I often wonder about General Choi being a 2nd dan; if he fully understood shotokan or if he got his 2nd dan and then started his own thing much like what is frown upon nowadays. What am I saying? the techniques done in TKD are trained with a superficial knowledge. For a deeper knowledge of techniques I sometimes look to shotokan's usage of the same material. *some karate schools also teach proper body mechanics, conditioning etc like CMA systems. Jye --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: The real benefits of poomse Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:37:30 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For ITF patterns, most techniques are demonstrated with application in the General's books. For me, patterns force me to work out on a prearranged set of motions. In the time I've been in martial arts, I noticed that every art has forms/patterns/poomse/tul. Some stylists deny it. When I've met those individuals, I ask them to explain the technique to me. Almost invariably I hear, "Well, first you..." and then I hear "step by step" on how to perform the technique. Sounds like a pattern to me. :) The last time I heard this was during a BJJ class on how to pass the guard. It was very strict set of movements. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Frank Clay To: the_dojang Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 00:11:08 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grats Bernard - USAT List Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'd like to say congrats to Bernard. I met him when I trained at a school he did. Excellent Taekwondoin. I believe he still has a school out in Chesterfield. Definitely worth a see if you ever find yourself in Chesterfield. Frank --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Donald" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:36:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Benefit of poomse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To the DD list, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Finley, and others have answered this pretty well, but there are other 'benefits' to be considered. Forms can teach the smooth, seamless transition from one technique to another. They are good exercise, especially for flexibility for us 'more mature' practitioners. Because segments of various forms are mirror images of previous moves, they make you aware of training your 'weak' side to duplicate the 'strong.' Watch someone do a form - when performing a technique, where is their 'weak' hand? This can be VERY instructive. Forms give you practice repetitions of techniques within an art that are not commonly taught or practiced. RE the self-defense value of techniques in forms: I believe they all have their uses in the correct context - therein lies the application of an art, knowing which technique to use when. Just my 2 cents. YMMV, pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 6 From: James O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The real benefits of poomse Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:06:33 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On Dec 20, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Thomas Gordon wrote: > > In the time I've been in martial arts, I noticed that every art has > forms/patterns/poomse/tul. Some stylists deny it. When I've met > those > individuals, I ask them to explain the technique to me. Almost > invariably I > hear, "Well, first you..." and then I hear "step by step" on how to > perform > the technique. Sounds like a pattern to me. :) That's a bit like saying that a roundhouse kick is a 'pattern' because "well, first you.." I think it stretches to usage of the term to the point that it loses meaning. A single leg guard pas is a single technique akin to a side kick, made of smaller mechanical motions, but that doesn't really make either of them akin to a poomse --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 08:43:37 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Acta Koreana Vol. 11, No. 3 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Begin forwarded message: Dear Colleagues, Academia Koreana of Keimyung University is pleased to announce the publication of Acta Koreana Vol. 11, No. 3. Its table of contents may be found below. Acta Koreana is a refereed journal registered with the Korea Research Foundation that is published semi-annually on 15 June and 15 December. It accepts submissions of academic articles, literary translations, interviews and book reviews throughout the year. The deadline for submissions for the June issue is 1 March and for the December issue 15 September. The upcoming issue Vol. 12, No. 1 will be on the theme of Korean music, but articles in any field of Korean studies will also be considered. For more information about Acta Koreana's aims, editorial board, submission guidelines, subscriptions and so on, please visit our website at http://actakoreana.kmu.ac.kr/ Best regards, Michael Finch PS: For anyone (especially librarians) wondering why a semi-annual journal has three issues in one year, it is because the original publication dates of 15 January and 15 July were changed in the middle of this year to 15 June and 15 December for administrative reasons. Acta Koreana Vol. 11, No. 3 (December 2008) Guest Editor’s Introduction: Christianity and the Emergence of Korean Modernity By Don Baker 1 –7 ARTICLES For God and Home: Women’s Education in Early Korean Protestantism By Chong Bum Kim 9 –28 “To Determine Our Own Course:” The Wilsonian Moment, Protestant Christianity, and the Korean Students in the United States By Anne S. Choi 29 –45 Saving Knowledge: Catholic Educational Policy in the Late Choson Dynasty By Franklin Rausch 47 –85 Korean Christian Theologies of the Holy Spirit: Their Distinctiveness and Their Origins in Korean Experience By Kirsteen Kim 87 –112 A Study of the Fundamentalist Tendency in Korean Protestantism: With Special Reference to the Korean Presbyterian Church By Jae-Buhm Hwang 113 –142 Tracing Trans-Pacific Continuity in the Faith of Second-Generation Korean Christians in the U.S.A. By Soyoung Park 143 –159 Ideology as Smokescreen: North Korea’s Juche Thought By Brian Myers 161 –182 LITERATURE IN TRANSLATION “Hwang Chini 1” by Ch’oe Inho Translated by Benjamin Cheung 183– 195 “Dead Person” by Ch’oe Inho Translated by Na Young Bae 197–213 INTERVIEW An Interview with Professor Hwang Byung-Ki Conducted by Tschung-Sun Kim 215–234 BOOK REVIEWS Human Decency. By By Kong Ji Yŏng. Translated by Bruce and Ju-Chan Fulton. Dafna Zur 235 –239 Domesticating the Dharma: Buddhist Cults and the Hwaŏm Synthesis in Silla Korea . By Richard D. McBride, II Dane Alston 239 –246 Oral Literature of Korea. Comp. by Seo Daeseok, ed. by Peter H. Lee. James H. Grayson 246 –248 Korean Spirituality. By Don Baker. Richard D. McBride, II 248 –251 Korean Cuisine: An Illustrated History. By Michael J. Pettid. Michael Reinschmidt 251 –257 North Korea: The Paranoid Peninsula . A Modern History (2nd revised edition). By Paul French. Leonid Petrov 257 –260 There a Petal Silently Falls. By Ch’oe Yun. Joanna Elfving- Hwang 261–265 The Making of Modern Korea. By Adrian Buzo. Adam Cathcart 265 –269 --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:40:25 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Reason for 24 Patterns The life of a human being, perhaps 100 years, can be considered as a day when compared with eternity. Therefore, we mortals are no more than simple travellers who pass by the eternal years of an eon in a day. It is evident that no one can live more than a limited amount of time. Nevertheless, most people foolishly enslave themselves to materialism as if they could live for thousands of years. And some people strive to bequeath a good spiritual legacy for coming generations, in this way, gaining immortality. Obviously, the spirit is perpetual while material is not; therefore, what we can do to leave behind something for the welfare of mankind is, perhaps, the most important thing in our lives. Here I leave Taekwon-Do for mankind as a trace of man of the late 20th century. The 24 patterns represent 24 hours, one day, or all my life. The name of the pattern, the number of movements, and the diagrammatic symbol of each pattern symbolizes either heroic figures in Korean history or instances relating to historical events. General Choi, Hong Hi Just a quote are those who thought the tuls lacked depth or meaning. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 20 December 2008 19:08 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) Hi J. Lee, On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Lee Morgan wrote: After all, even though the TKD forms are relatively new, most of the movements that make up the forms are VERY old.  The fact that they are so old and yet are still around, and common to almost every martial style leads me to believe that there are many aspects to these movements that are not being taught in most TKD schools today. The basic problem is that the Korean masters that developed the forms have little or no idea what is involved with the forms for self-defense. I base this on several things - the first and foremost is that you don't see Korean "masters" teaching applications of forms that would actually work. What is shown and what they teach are simplistic - and IMHO not very practical. IF they had some better ideas I would be willing to bet my last dollar they would be all over the magazines and DVD market trying to make some extra cash, and they would have been doing it for a long time now. I have had personal contact with any number of Korean masters over the years, one in particular was Son Duk Son, and was able to see first hand what they taught and none of them taught any integration between forms and self-defense applications. I have had one of my friends ask directly Choi Hong Hi about applications, in particular "down block" and his response was - block front kick. When he pressed him if there was any other possible application he became a bit irate and said quite strongly - block front kick. I am in a unique position in that I have been able to see lots of martial artists around the world. In a short version I have been teaching seminars in Australia, Belgium, Canada, England, France, Germany, Sweden, Scotland, Norway, New Zealand, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Wales, and the USA for around 17 or 18 years. It would have been interesting to have counted the number of people I have seen over the years, but there have been thousands. So I have a rather good idea on what people are teaching when it comes to self-defense applications in forms. Are there people teaching practical applications that would work? Sure, but there are not that many out there doing so, although there are more in the past 20 years than there were before that time. There are a few of us out there that have been preaching this to the world, and I am sure many of you know the names. None of them are Korean masters...... Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:55:16 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Peter is fine. I've just posted a quote from the General. Although I am not Korean, I love the history that is told thru the patterns a bit like ancestor worship thru movement. These heroes imbue me with their power. That's a bit deep. Understanding the 6 principles of power are important too. Essential for any self defense situation. And as I think you mentioned getting the reaction force motion right, is the basis for many of the throws and take downs in (ITF) TKD. Throws that were used to train two sets of soldier Korean and Vietnamese. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Lee Morgan [mailto:jlmhookkick@gmail.com] Sent: 20 December 2008 04:21 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) Thank you for your comments Peter. I hope you'll forgive the informality, but I wasn't sure if your last name is Smith, or McDonald. I've always enjoyed watching people practice the tuls. Being in WTF TKD I practice the Tae Guek poomse. One of the things I've been interested in for a long time is understanding the movements behind the forms especially the self-defense movements. After all, even though the TKD forms are relatively new, most of the movements that make up the forms are VERY old. The fact that they are so old and yet are still around, and common to almost every martial style leads me to believe that there are many aspects to these movements that are not being taught in most TKD schools today. Again, any thoughts are much appreciated, and thank you once again. J. Lee Morgan _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest