Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:48:30 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #346 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Forms not practical (Frank Clay) 2. RE: Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) (Jye nigma) 3. RE:The real benefits of Poomse (Kenneth Legendre) 4. good video on usage from forms (Jye nigma) 5. RE: RE:The real benefits of Poomse (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Frank Clay To: the_dojang Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:11:35 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms not practical Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, I'd counter that the forms are very practical if you understand them. For example, and I think I've posited this before, if you look at the rotation of the forearm in the traditional punch, you are taught that it causes more power. In reality it does not contribute a significant number of joules. That being said, what it does do is activate the bicep, which helps increase strength in the hand and arm by working the supporting muscles. Considering that a number of martial artists were military and/or professional fiughters of one type or another, I'd counter that there is more to the form than meets the eye. What if the idea was to take movements that you were learning and to use those movements to strength the body which leads to more strength in technique and over all well being? I've studied hard qi gong, and while not all of it fits in this category, alot of what I studied would be considered plyometric in nature and includes proper breathing. What if we are looking at the form in the wrong way. What if the intent is to strengthen and bal;ance the body in a way that "translates" to combat? I used to have to do a butterfly kick, amusing enough on its own, but would you do that in a fight? No. You would use the balance and explosiveness though. A butterfly kick works agility, plyometric strength and balance, in addition to basic body awareness of where you are. Maybe the lesson is not quite so obvious and I'd theorize that the practicality may not be as well. Thoughts? Frank PS the Army does the same type of thing. Every gone through bayonet training? The combinations they give are not very practical until you try them with a pugil stick. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:39:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The reason for 24 patterns doesn't add depth to the forms. When I speak of depth, I'm talking about the martial science in the techniques and tactics captured in the form. Forms from other systems like JMA, CMA, etc contain much more then obvious movements. The function of movements are deep. For instance, stance training trains/develops the root but also teaches lower body attacks. The forms in CMA for example teach linkage and proper body mechanics for whole body power.   here's an example of extracting the deeper science of CMA form of bagua: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS-hTH7H3TY&feature=channel_page   Jye --- On Sun, 12/21/08, PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk wrote: From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 2:40 PM The Reason for 24 Patterns The life of a human being, perhaps 100 years, can be considered as a day when compared with eternity. Therefore, we mortals are no more than simple travellers who pass by the eternal years of an eon in a day. It is evident that no one can live more than a limited amount of time. Nevertheless, most people foolishly enslave themselves to materialism as if they could live for thousands of years. And some people strive to bequeath a good spiritual legacy for coming generations, in this way, gaining immortality. Obviously, the spirit is perpetual while material is not; therefore, what we can do to leave behind something for the welfare of mankind is, perhaps, the most important thing in our lives. Here I leave Taekwon-Do for mankind as a trace of man of the late 20th century. The 24 patterns represent 24 hours, one day, or all my life. The name of the pattern, the number of movements, and the diagrammatic symbol of each pattern symbolizes either heroic figures in Korean history or instances relating to historical events. General Choi, Hong Hi Just a quote are those who thought the tuls lacked depth or meaning. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 20 December 2008 19:08 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Peter) Hi J. Lee, On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Lee Morgan wrote: After all, even though the TKD forms are relatively new, most of the movements that make up the forms are VERY old.  The fact that they are so old and yet are still around, and common to almost every martial style leads me to believe that there are many aspects to these movements that are not being taught in most TKD schools today. The basic problem is that the Korean masters that developed the forms have little or no idea what is involved with the forms for self-defense. I base this on several things - the first and foremost is that you don't see Korean "masters" teaching applications of forms that would actually work. What is shown and what they teach are simplistic - and IMHO not very practical. IF they had some better ideas I would be willing to bet my last dollar they would be all over the magazines and DVD market trying to make some extra cash, and they would have been doing it for a long time now. I have had personal contact with any number of Korean masters over the years, one in particular was Son Duk Son, and was able to see first hand what they taught and none of them taught any integration between forms and self-defense applications. I have had one of my friends ask directly Choi Hong Hi about applications, in particular "down block" and his response was - block front kick. When he pressed him if there was any other possible application he became a bit irate and said quite strongly - block front kick. I am in a unique position in that I have been able to see lots of martial artists around the world. In a short version I have been teaching seminars in Australia, Belgium, Canada, England, France, Germany, Sweden, Scotland, Norway, New Zealand, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Wales, and the USA for around 17 or 18 years. It would have been interesting to have counted the number of people I have seen over the years, but there have been thousands. So I have a rather good idea on what people are teaching when it comes to self-defense applications in forms. Are there people teaching practical applications that would work? Sure, but there are not that many out there doing so, although there are more in the past 20 years than there were before that time. There are a few of us out there that have been preaching this to the world, and I am sure many of you know the names. None of them are Korean masters...... Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:55:32 -0600 From: Kenneth Legendre To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All, If I were to tell you that a specific move was only for doing one particular thing. Your mind would close off to any other use for that move. I have a book here written by one of the members of this list, Mr. Rick Clark entitled "75 Down Blocks: Refining Karate Technique" Maybe the Koreans had no clue what they were doing. I would tend to disagree based on the interactions that I've had with my grandmaster a 9th degree who trained under the general.. Maybe they didn't want people to get to set in their ways and not be willing to listen to other interpretations. One of the things that I've always felt was going up through the ranks you were taught the moves. Once you reached black belt you should go back through everything that you have learned and "make it yours". What I mean by that is go back and try other interpretations for the movements and figure out what works best for you and your body type. Please don't take anything personal as none of this was intended as an attack on anybody. These are my feelings and have been for quite some time. Thanks, Mr. Kenneth Legendre 5th Dan TKD --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:26:13 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] good video on usage from forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHIa4WGF-xc --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:55:44 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Kenneth for your remarks my instructor is an 8th Dan. We apply movements from our patterns every week in self defense training. The movements are executed in a fast dynamic fashion. Jye having read your remarks I couldn't disagree more, (that's if I've understood you) I have bought a book called Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul - Real Applications to the ITF Patterns: Vol 1 (Paperback) on AMAZON. I think there may be too much SCIENCE IN IT. Sorry must go shift is ending Peter -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Legendre [mailto:innae1@gmail.com] Sent: 22 December 2008 01:56 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse Hello All, If I were to tell you that a specific move was only for doing one particular thing. Your mind would close off to any other use for that move. I have a book here written by one of the members of this list, Mr. Rick Clark entitled "75 Down Blocks: Refining Karate Technique" Maybe the Koreans had no clue what they were doing. I would tend to disagree based on the interactions that I've had with my grandmaster a 9th degree who trained under the general.. Maybe they didn't want people to get to set in their ways and not be willing to listen to other interpretations. One of the things that I've always felt was going up through the ranks you were taught the moves. Once you reached black belt you should go back through everything that you have learned and "make it yours". What I mean by that is go back and try other interpretations for the movements and figure out what works best for you and your body type. Please don't take anything personal as none of this was intended as an attack on anybody. These are my feelings and have been for quite some time. Thanks, Mr. Kenneth Legendre 5th Dan TKD _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest