Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 02:48:22 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #347 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Forms (Zisheged@aol.com) 2. RE: Forms not practical (Rick Clark) 3. RE: RE:The real benefits of Poomse (Rick Clark) 4. RE: Benefit of poomse (Rick Clark) 5. RE: Forms not practical (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Zisheged@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:29:31 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On one hand too much is made of forms. In another prospective, this is the art of martial arts. Without poomsae its just Krav Maga. Zeishe **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:32:46 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Forms not practical To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Frank, On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Frank Clay wrote: > Rick, I'd counter that the forms are very practical if you understand them. Not much argument from me - if you understand form they are very practical. The problem is do people understand them? For example, and I think I've posited this before, if you look at the rotation of the forearm in the traditional punch, you are taught that it causes more power. In reality it does not contribute a significant number of joules. That being said, what it does do is activate the bicep, which helps increase strength in the hand and arm by working the supporting muscles. Considering that a number of martial artists were military and/or professional fiughters of one type or another, I'd counter that there is more to the form than meets the eye. What if the idea was to take movements that you were learning and to use those movements to strength the body which leads to more strength in technique and over all well being? Sure, "IF" and this will take as a matter of faith that the person who created the form or the movement in the form knew what they were doing and used the movment for a specific purpose. The the big "IF" comes did that person transmit the knowledge of the reason the movement is the way it is to you the end user of the form? I've studied hard qi gong, and while not all of it fits in this category, alot of what I studied would be considered plyometric in nature and includes proper breathing. What if we are looking at the form in the wrong way. What if the intent is to strengthen and bal;ance the body in a way that "translates" to combat? I used to have to do a butterfly kick, amusing enough on its own, but would you do that in a fight? No. You would use the balance and explosiveness though. A butterfly kick works agility, plyometric strength and balance, in addition to basic body awareness of where you are. OK I would agree that a butterfly kick is not at the top of the list of practicle kicks, but here comes my view as a 60 year old - you revert to previoulsy learned behavior in momemnt of stress. The martial arts (if you are using them for self-defense) should in my view replace old and inneffective reflexive actions with new and effective actions in response to a stimulus. So when and if a person were to be attacked they would respond with the newer behavior and hopefully the old behavior will have been extinguished. Maybe the lesson is not quite so obvious and I'd theorize that the practicality may not be as well. Thoughts? If we make the assumption that forms were developed by the "OLD MASTERS" and they were for the purpose of passing on the system of fighting that they would use in a real life and death situation - then I would have to beleive that they would have to be both practical and useful for the individual. I don't beleive they would take time to practice something that would not add to their chances of staying alive in a combat situation. Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:14:26 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Kenneth, On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Kenneth Legendre wrote: > Hello All, If I were to tell you that a specific move was only for doing one particular thing. Your mind would close off to any other use for that move. I have a book here written by one of the members of this list, Mr. Rick Clark entitled "75 Down Blocks: Refining Karate Technique" I hope you found something in the book that was interesting. Maybe the Koreans had no clue what they were doing. I would tend to disagree based on the interactions that I've had with my grandmaster a 9th degree who trained under the general.. Maybe they didn't want people to get to set in their ways and not be willing to listen to other interpretations. One of the things that I've always felt was going up through the ranks you were taught the moves. Once you reached black belt you should go back through everything that you have learned and "make it yours". What I mean by that is go back and try other interpretations for the movements and figure out what works best for you and your body type. I understand and beleive that you should be able to make the art your own. In fact that is one of the reasons I wrote that book, to try and offer some alternative explinations to a very simple movment found across the board in various martial arts. Thinking on your own or outside the box is something that I beleve many martial artists fail to do. It's comfortable to go into a club and have an instructor do the thinking for you. But there needs to be some guidance along the way. A 1st dan really is at the point where they have the basic techniques down of a system and are at a point where they can begin to learn. But way too often I see people stopping their training or of the opinion that now they know everything. Even worse in my opinon is when 1st dan are being put out on the floor and are responsible for teaching yet do not continue to train in classes that are designed for black belts. How many classes do you see where there are black belt only classes taught by a high rank instructor? Please don't take anything personal as none of this was intended as an attack on anybody. These are my feelings and have been for quite some time. So far I have not seen anything that could be taken in a personal manner. Thanks, Mr. Kenneth Legendre 5th Dan TKD Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:39:09 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Benefit of poomse To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Donald, On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Donald wrote:     Because segments of various forms are mirror images of previous moves, they make you aware of training your 'weak' side to duplicate the 'strong.' Have you ever noticed that in many of the forms various movements are devidied into 1, 2's, and 3's and they tend to favor one side over the other? So one side will practice a particular move more than the other side? Don Ross ______ Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:09:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Forms not practical To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In all fairness, old forms like in CMA MA have a leg up on KMA like TKD because their forms are older which means the forms have passed through many hands. So just think, The creator of XYZ martial art could have said ok downblock blocks a low kick. Then 200 years later the inheritor of the XYZ system acknowledges the downblock action as a down block, but perhaps this individual grappled before he studied XYZ so he adds to the meaning of that action saying it is also to get released from a grab, and for this and for that. then 500 years down the road.... *see where I'm going? I believe this is the case with older systems. BUT you have to realize the older systems were typically developed by bodyguards, military people, or whoever was fighting. So the focus was not on aesthetics it was on functionality.   In arts like TKD and some other KMA I believe the focus is on aesthetics primarily and functionality lastly. no disrespect intended but some KMA forms I see make me cringe. They fly their hands around in meaning less flurries for the fluid "look" that kung fu has, and the techniques seem to be put together for the sake of looking good. Some may say well that's just a form, but a form is the heart of the system in my opinion. I shared a clip that I don't think was allowed in this group (why I don't know) but it was a discussion of 3 teachers of kung fu discussing techniques extracted straight from their forms but used in todays fighting situations. This is what all TKD teachers should do.   Jye --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Rick Clark wrote: If we make the assumption that forms were developed by the "OLD MASTERS" and they were for the purpose of passing on the system of fighting that they would use in a real life and death situation - then I would have to beleive that they would have to be both practical and useful for the individual. I don't beleive they would take time to practice something that would not add to their chances of staying alive in a combat situation. Rick Clark --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest