Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 02:48:24 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #348 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: RE:The real benefits of Poomse-meditative exercise (Master Mark Seidel) 2. Jumping back kick video (Jye nigma) 3. Re: form (ISAHDQ) 4. Rick (Frank Clay) 5. RE: RE:The real benefits of Poomse-meditative exercise (Rick Clark) 6. Jye (Frank Clay) 7. RE: Rick (Rick Clark) 8. Merry Christmas (Ray) 9. Re: Jye (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse-meditative exercise Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:34:59 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My 3 cents Forms/Patterns/Poomse considering if you have studied and committed a dozen or so to memory, might be used in segments in self defense as a memory response. However I have been to literally a hundred tournaments over the years where a few competitors had physical disagreements with competitors and coaches and decided to start a fight never did any resemble any part of a poomse. My most memorable was a Black Belt parent that decided to come after me (a referee) after the match. This guy was a 2nd or 3rd Dan and was not happy that I disqualified his son for mouthing off too many times. His face was red as a beet and his opening move was a back spin kick that caught my hand and he slipped and hit his head on a chair and required hospitalization; other than misdirecting his kick I never laid a hand on him and he never laid a hand or foot on me. That adrenaline drenched fight lasted 2 seconds and his years of training the typical forms, sparring and breaking yielded him no ability to control his anger, adrenaline response, yet alone common sense. I have watched high ranked Masters fight each other at tournaments after verbal disagreements with nothing more than wild swings and school yard pushing. The Navy goes through great lengths to weed out the week in SEAL training but still in horrific situations there are freeze ups. If you study adrenaline response your heart at 150 beats per minutes induced by fear can cause fainting, confusion, loss of fine motor skills and in continence. So I do not believe that forms will retrain muscle memory because they were not designed to simulate real combative situations in today's world. Most forms are defenses followed by an attack. Most experts agree that the one that lands the first effective blow has a higher probability of defeating an attacker. My BB's like doing Poomse, they like memorizing new forms and doing them at different speeds. Learning to defend themselves is kept separate from forms, sparring and breaking. Teaching the philosophies of the arts will more than likely make them better human beings who avoid fighting in the first place. No disrespect Prof Clark but "70 down blocks"?? You only need one and that's the one that gets out of the way, didn't Mr.Miyagi say "best block is not be there when punch comes"? Merry Christmas everyone..... Mark -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:14 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse Hi Kenneth, On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Kenneth Legendre wrote: > Hello All, If I were to tell you that a specific move was only for doing one particular thing. Your mind would close off to any other use for that move. I have a book here written by one of the members of this list, Mr. Rick Clark entitled "75 Down Blocks: Refining Karate Technique" I hope you found something in the book that was interesting. Thanks, Mr. Kenneth Legendre 5th Dan TKD Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:43:21 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jumping back kick video Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Happy Holidays group!   Here's a gift for you all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM   Jye --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "ISAHDQ" To: Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:33:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: form Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What is the old saying, "Form follows Function," or is it "Function follows Form?" Merry Christmas to all, George Petrotta http://www.sungjado.org/dialupchristmas2008.html http://www.sungjado.org/broadbandchristmas2008.html --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Frank Clay To: the_dojang Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 07:49:29 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Rick Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, First let me thank you for the wonderful discourse. Second, I really don't think that martial arts were created by "old masters" in the sense that they were "old" when they founded them. I think that there is a body opf evidence which suggests that they were created in part by warriors and military personnel of the time. Some of the techniques, actually I'd say a good portion, were likely designed to allow warriors to show prowess and skill moreso than the "kung Fu" tv series inspired fable of the holy man. While it may be true, and I say may because I've not seen any actual research data - so forgive my bias, that there are either some arts or a subset of some arts that were involved in training monks, the question becomes were they used for actual enlightenment or were they used to teach them how to protect their monestaries, homes and lay people? I think that the latter is probably closer to reality. I hope you and yours, as well as our listmates, have a very Merry Christmas and I wish you all much health and profit in the New Year. Frank --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:14:08 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse-meditative exercise To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark > From: Master Mark Seidel [mailto:mastermark@comcast.net] [Rick] First a very Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year to all! > Forms/Patterns/Poomse considering if you have studied and committed a dozen or so to memory, might be used in segments in self defense as a memory > response. a fight never did any resemble any part of a poomse. [Rick] I have been practicing one form for about 18 to 20 years now, and while I still remember the others I concentrate on the one. Chulgi (Naihanchi or Teki). This guy was a 2nd or 3rd Dan his opening move was a back spin kick he slipped and hit his head on a chair and required > hospitalization That adrenaline drenched fight lasted 2 seconds and his years of training the typical forms, sparring and breaking yielded him no ability to >control his anger, adrenaline response > > I have watched high ranked Masters fight each other at tournaments > after verbal disagreements with nothing more than wild swings and school yard > pushing. You are making my point here. These individuals, at least in my opinion did not understand or practice forms in a manner that would develop self defense skills. The "high ranked Masters" clearly did not have an understanding of forms. > So I do not believe that forms will retrain muscle memory because they > were not designed to simulate real combative situations in today's world. [Rick] I am curious how real combative situations differ today than say 500 years ago? Human anatomy and physiology have remained the same, responses to stimulus have remained the same. We are still attacked with hands and feet, sometimes weapons. But the angle that the weapon is used to attack has to stay the same just because of the way we are physically built. Let me offer a few short observations: While we can not predict all of variations that a person will use to attack us we can with some degree of accuracy narrow down the number of attacks and make model our training on attacks that have a high probability of occurrence. For example: Will an attack in a street situation occur from A) 6 ft or more B) 2 to 6 ft C) closer than 2 foot Will an attack involve a grab to the lapel followed by a A) punch to the back of the head B) the ankle C) the face Will an attack involve A) jump spin kick B) Grab C) push I believe that you can look at the probability of an attack and begin to prepare defensive techniques to counter such attacks and that if you practice them enough you will build up a stimulus response to various common attacks. Will you be attacked the exact same way on the street? Probably not BUT you there should be enough of a similarity in the attack patter that it will not take you completely by surprise and have to prepare a strategy to defend against an assault. Surprise to an attack is probably the thing that causes the most problems, but if we are not surprised by the attack we can respond smoothly and as a result surprise our opponent - causing them to rethink their initial attack. > Most forms are defenses followed by an attack. [Rick] Perhaps not. Is there any reason you feel that forms are purely defensive? Or let me ask this in another way. If there is a person who is coming at you, screaming profanity at you, has their arm drawn back ready to punch (but not yet punching) they are preparing to attack and you perceive the assault and beat them to the attack before they get a chance to attack you, preemptive if you will. In Japanese martial arts this might be an example of "Sen Sen no Sen". You might want to have a look at the concepts of "Go no Sen" "Sen no Sen", and "Sen Sen no Sen". > Most experts agree that the one that lands the first effective blow has a higher probability of defeating an attacker. [Rick] Not an argument here. > > Learning to defend themselves is kept separate from forms, sparring and breaking. [Rick] Why are they separate? It seems to me that if you can integrate all of your training techniques into a coherent whole you may have a more effective mode of training. But then each club and instructor would have their own personal take on the underlying intent of their teaching would be. Don't misunderstand me, if someone wants to train their club as a competition club that's not a problem, or if they want to have a club that centers on spiritual training, or any aspect that's their choice. For me I like to think in terms of self defense, and so I tent to look at the arts from that view point. > No disrespect Prof Clark but "70 down blocks"?? You only need one and that's the one that gets out of the way, [Rick] None taken - and it's 75 down blocks :-) By the way have you read my book? One of the major reasons I did this book was to offer some alternative explanations to a simple movement, to get people to think that there might be more to a down block than - block a front kick. If that could be seen then there is a whole range of techniques out there that could be explored. > didn't Mr.Miyagi say "best block is not be there when punch comes"? [Rick] Yep and he also said his belt came from K-Mart (or something like that). But, then that was a movie and that punch will be followed by another punch and another until one person has had enough of the fight. You might slip one punch, but I think the odds go down with each punch, you need to be able to follow up with something to deter your attacker from continuing the fight. > > Merry Christmas everyone..... > > Mark Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Frank Clay To: the_dojang Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:00:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jye Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, I think that you should make note of the difference between modern wushu and kung fu. Now, I must admit because I'm somewhat an ox, my sifu chose to give me Shandong Tiger instead of Shandong Eagle - probably in part to save his sanity. I think that many of the set patterns in CMA do have more utility than in some other arts but I'm not sure if its for the reason you posit. I've trained in KMA for around 30 years or so. I've trained on each coast and in the middle in a variety of KMA, mostly because of travel and what/who was available. In all that time, I've never had many conversations with Korean stylists about "what" the form was supposed to be so I wonder if this is actually generally passed down. I'd think not. I remember training with Master Dong in Richmond and he did teach me a few nuggets here and there but it was never in the actual class. It was alwasy given to me as special training when I came in early to clean the school or to help prepare for classes. It became more accentuated when he decided he was going to teach me to be a teacher. I don't remember ever seeing him give it to the general class. I noticed the same thing from Dae Un Yoon (Jin Jun Kwan) where he'd show me stuff on the side that wasn't shown to even my seniors. I'd like to clarify that I'm not Jin Jun Kwan, I just had a good relationship with Master Yoon, as well as the utmost respect him - its just good painful old school make them flop like a fish hapkido. I'm by no means an expert in Jin Jun Kwan. I can say that some of my CMA sets seemed to want two things from me - fluidity to facility speed in striking and to challenge my body and the ways I could make it move. Fluidity is very important - if you look at the formula for power, speed (velocity) has a greater importance than does mass, which is not to say its not important. Remember a .22 doesn't pack as much punch as a .45 but both are still deadly. Thoughts? ~f. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:11:13 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rick To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Frank, > From: Frank Clay [mailto:frankclay@msn.com] > Rick, > > First let me thank you for the wonderful discourse. [Rick] I really enjoy good discussion on this subject because in part it takes a bit of history and quite a bit of speculation. > Second, I really don't think that martial arts were created by "old masters" in the sense that they were "old" when they founded them. [Rick] Oh I agree - in a way I am saying this with tongue in cheek. The old masters I am most often taking a swipe at are the founders of the various Kwan who had a few years of training in Shotokan and may have been a 1st or perhaps up to 3rd dan, or may have found some Karate book and learned the various forms and then founded a Kwan and then they were a super duper grand master that knew it all. Yet, if a western person were to do the same thing they would be seen as a fake or fraud. >I think that there is a body opf > evidence > which suggests that they were created in part by warriors and military > personnel of the time. Some of the techniques, actually I'd say a good > portion, were likely designed to allow warriors to show prowess and > skill [Rick] I would agree that the martial arts probably were in part developed by warriors and the military. But there would have been a bit that was more from the lower classes. But the farmer/warrior I think is a bit over rated. We have Amish in our area and they work from sunrise to sunset and don't really make use of "modern" farming machines. I have not been in their homes but I'll bet by the time they get to sundown they are tired and ready for bed. Not much time for leisure, or if they were not pacifist to practice a martial art. > moreso than the "kung Fu" tv series inspired fable of the holy man. > While it > may be true, and I say may because I've not seen any actual research > data - so > forgive my bias, that there are either some arts or a subset of some > arts that > were involved in training monks, the question becomes were they used > for > actual enlightenment or were they used to teach them how to protect > their > monestaries, homes and lay people? I think that the latter is probably > closer > to reality. [Rick] I suspect that there may have been a bit of moving meditation but more than likely it was as a means of self-defense and it would have had the flavor of the Taoist or Buddhist view. > > I hope you and yours, as well as our listmates, have a very Merry > Christmas > and I wish you all much health and profit in the New Year. [Rick] In this I can not have the lest bit of disagreement :-) The same goes for me. > > Frank Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:40:51 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Merry Christmas Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night... Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:57:36 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jye To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net True. When I used CMA for an example I'm not refering to wushu (the sport) I'm actually referring to traditional chinese martial arts. Back when I was studying snake fist boxing I learned forms but every movement had a reason; whether for strengthening proper body mechanics or developing a strong bridge or for actual combat moves every movement was defined. I think an art whose practitioners trains like that and uses movements and tactics from the system's forms will produce fighters who don't really look like others. What I mean is if you take a TKD, karate, and kung fu fighter put them in street clothes and make them spar they all sort of fight alike (kick and punch). Now if those individuals dissect their forms and actually use their art kung fu men will look different from karate men, and they will look different then tkd men, etc. My understanding of studying the martial applications of forms is to extract possible martial art apps and to be able to "use your art" to fight or whatever.   Jye --- On Wed, 12/24/08, Frank Clay wrote: Jye, I think that you should make note of the difference between modern wushu and kung fu. Now, I must admit because I'm somewhat an ox, my sifu chose to give me Shandong Tiger instead of Shandong Eagle - probably in part to save his sanity. I think that many of the set patterns in CMA do have more utility than in some other arts but I'm not sure if its for the reason you posit. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest