Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:48:18 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #351 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: RE: The real benefits of poomse-meditative (Jye nigma) 2. RE: Re: physical fitness requirements (Thomas Gordon) 3. adult fitness (Jerry) 4. RE: Re: physical fitness requirements (Jye nigma) 5. RE: adult fitness (Thomas Gordon) 6. Re: Does strength count? (zisheged@aol.com) 7. RE: Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Rick) (Lee Morgan) 8. RE: Re: physical fitness requirements (Lee Morgan) 9. RE: Rather real benefits of Poomse-meditative exercise (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 10. on physical fitness (Leah Douglas) 11. RE: RE: RE: The real benefits of poomse-meditative (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:55:41 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: RE: The real benefits of poomse-meditative To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yeah I bet this is the case. I know some people may think TKD doesn't need improvements until they cross hands with people who train in those areas.   Jye --- On Thu, 12/25/08, Lee Morgan wrote:   But I'm not sure that TKD even wants to improve in this area---at least not WTF TKD.  Or maybe it's that TKD doesn't think it needs to improve in this area.  I --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: physical fitness requirements Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 18:37:03 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, I think we've all seen the big tough guys go down for the count. Apparently, weight lifting didn't help their glass jaw or lack of pain tolerance. However, if similar training (weights, cardio, & martial arts), the larger man has the edge - that's why they have weight classes. The 155lb UFC champ does NOT want to get into the ring with the UFC heavyweight champ. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:44:48 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jerry Subject: [The_Dojang] adult fitness Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you dig a bit at the web site of the President's Council on Physical Fitness it will eventually point to here: http://www.adultfitnesstest.org/ Jerry -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin It's also true that those who would give up privacy for security are likely to end up with neither. It's not the years in your life that count, but the life in your years" "Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional" "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement and success have no meaning." - Benjamin Franklin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 16:50:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: physical fitness requirements To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes I'll agree a person with those things has the edge, but as far as weight classes, aren't any weight classes in the streets.   Jye --- On Fri, 12/26/08, Thomas Gordon wrote: From: Thomas Gordon Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: physical fitness requirements To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, December 26, 2008, 7:37 PM Yes, I think we've all seen the big tough guys go down for the count. Apparently, weight lifting didn't help their glass jaw or lack of pain tolerance. However, if similar training (weights, cardio, & martial arts), the larger man has the edge - that's why they have weight classes. The 155lb UFC champ does NOT want to get into the ring with the UFC heavyweight champ. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] adult fitness Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 19:05:19 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you, I was hoping for a chart like I've seen for juniors. We're implementing physical fitness requirements this year at our school. Nothing crazy - just reasonable. Don't want any pooh black belts. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 6 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:06:13 -0500 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Does strength count? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To Tom Gordon, ???? There is no chart for adults on physical fitness. so I hold adults to the same as the most advanced child. To Jye, ?? Of course I too have seen weel trained fighters defeat muscular guys. Just watch MMA. I didn't say technique was unimportant, but I spend far more time with conditioning, aerobics and weight training than I do forms. We practice forms weekly but spend 40 minutes in training before our lesson. I will not accept anyone going past blue belt that is not in good physical shape. Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 01:12:41 -0500 From: "Lee Morgan" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Rick) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rick. Thanks for your comments to my question about poomse. Not ignoring the comments from others here about KMA forms, I tend to agree with you. Now, I may be completely backwards on this and I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I tend to believe that the forms practiced in WTF TKD, and probably most KMA styles were developed in order to have a more purely "Korean" style. After all, it's a "2000 year old Korean Martial Art" that was practicing the Okinawan Katas---(even if they were the Japanese version of them) until the 1960's. I have an analogy that I like to use to try to explain what has happened to forms--especially those that are downstream from the Okinawan styles: Imagine a country where only a few people could read. You had only a handful of reading teachers who only taught one or two students to read during their lifetime. They would teach by having the students learn to write the alphebet. Then they would teach the sound each letter represented as they practiced writing the letters. Then they would have the student practice writing some of the letters together to form words, then sentences, then stories/poems/songs, etc... At some point, a foreign power took over this small country. The foreign rulers could not read the writing of this country, but still they ordered that all school children be taught how to read. Now, the few reading teachers that were there had never developed methods of teaching many people at a time, nor did they want very many people knowing how to read. So, they began teaching the students how to write each letter, then they had them copy words, sentences, and whole poems/stories over and over---but they never taught the students what sounds the letters represented. But the students practiced writing the stories that they couldn't read so much, that many of them developed superb penmanship. Imagine what would happen to the way the letters would be written after a few generations of this. With no meaning, the letters very form would loose meaning. Many of these students would grow to be teachers themselves. They would be asked "why are we writing these symbols over and over?" They would probably give many answers except the truth. Also, you would have some people begin to be more free with the way they wrote the letters---"it looks more beautiful if you write the letters like this". Or, "it's much more challenging if you write the letters like this". After a time, the letters/poems/stories would have been changed so much that even if someone who actually knew how to read saw them, he couldn't read them. It's my hope that there are people out there who want to preserve the "martial art" in TKD. I hope that it's not too late already. I've noticed that TKD is called a sport now more than it's called a martial art. I see no reason why it can't be both. But in order to fix TKD, the leaders of TKD have to see a need to fix it, and they have to be willing to let go of "national pride". In other words, they have to be willing to accept input from someone like you, who's not Korean. I'm beginning to think that even they don't think of TKD as a martial art anymore. Which is shameful, since it's marketed to the public as a "2000 year old Korean MARTIAL ART" that teaches "self-defense" among other things. If you think about it, teaching self defense is a very big responsibility. If you teach a student to do certain things in certain situations, you are helping that person to save his life, or to get hurt worse, or killed. It's a huge responsibility and should not be taken lightly. I hope I haven't offended anyone with these comments. Happy New Year!!! Lee Morgan --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:21:37 -0500 From: "Lee Morgan" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Re: physical fitness requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Zeishe, I'm with you on physical fitness. I believe that taking care of our bodies should be one of our top priorities. Look at all the benefits of being in good shape. You feel better, you think better, you sleep better, you work better, your immune system works better, your outlook on life is better----just to name a few. Far too many people place taking good care of their car or house at a higher priority than taking good care of their bodies. Think of how backward that is---I can get a new car, I can get another house, but this body is the only one God has given me. I would like to commend you on creating the stages of fitness your students must attain. I would disagree with you on your view of forms training. I believe that it depends on HOW you train in forms. Again, every TKD school I've had the opportunity to visit or practice with (and more and more Karate schools these days) just go through the motions of the form. They don't seem to have any body conditioning exercises (physical fitness) that go with the forms, they don't seem to have any drills directly associated with the forms, and they don't seem to have very many effective self defense techniques directly associated with the forms. So, it seems that for most students the forms become something that they must learn and perform nicely before they get their next belt. I would also respectfully disagree with you about your statement of prevailing in a fight if you have sloppy technique but are very strong. I have just seen this disproven so many times. This is an argument that has gone on for years though. Even two of my training partners have the same philosophy of forms. They are jujitsu men, and they don't practice forms---at least in their mind. When I point out to them that by practicing a certain technique over and over and over, they are actually doing forms---and that their actions once again prove me right. This makes them mad (in a friendly way of course), which makes my training session even better. Again, I hope I haven't offended you by disagreeing, Happy New Year!! Lee --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rather real benefits of Poomse-meditative exercise Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:40:36 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Some fine points. You have seen a great deal more live fights than I have. I have seen some basket ball players have fights. They are all optimally fit athletes but when they're good at pushing and shoving but their punching is poor. And when I watch footballers fight especially in South America they tend to kick and head butt. Is this because they automatically go to the move that they are strongest at? I think so. The adrenaline response, which you refer to can be used for fight or flight. I would agree that when the adrenaline kicks in it can encumber your fine motor skills. However as a fire fighter I have had to use fine motor skills to tie knots in life and death situation in the dark with gloves on. My martial arts training in those situations have been invaluable. Specifically breathing techniques. Breathing that I work on during the tuls. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Master Mark Seidel [mailto:mastermark@comcast.net] Sent: 24 December 2008 01:35Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse-meditative exercise My 3 cents Forms/Patterns/Poomse considering if you have studied and committed a dozen or so to memory, might be used in segments in self defense as a memory response. However I have been to literally a hundred tournaments over the years where a few competitors had physical disagreements with competitors and coaches and decided to start a fight never did any resemble any part of a poomse. My most memorable was a Black Belt parent that decided to come after me (a referee) after the match. This guy was a 2nd or 3rd Dan and was not happy that I disqualified his son for mouthing off too many times. His face was red as a beet and his opening move was a back spin kick that caught my hand and he slipped and hit his head on a chair and required hospitalization; other than misdirecting his kick I never laid a hand on him and he never laid a hand or foot on me. That adrenaline drenched fight lasted 2 seconds and his years of training the typical forms, sparring and breaking yielded him no ability to control his anger, adrenaline response, yet alone common sense. I have watched high ranked Masters fight each other at tournaments after verbal disagreements with nothing more than wild swings and school yard pushing. The Navy goes through great lengths to weed out the week in SEAL training but still in horrific situations there are freeze ups. If you study adrenaline response your heart at 150 beats per minutes induced by fear can cause fainting, confusion, loss of fine motor skills and in continence. So I do not believe that forms will retrain muscle memory because they were not designed to simulate real combative situations in today's world. Most forms are defenses followed by an attack. Most experts agree that the one that lands the first effective blow has a higher probability of defeating an attacker. My BB's like doing Poomse, they like memorizing new forms and doing them at different speeds. Learning to defend themselves is kept separate from forms, sparring and breaking. Teaching the philosophies of the arts will more than likely make them better human beings who avoid fighting in the first place. No disrespect Prof Clark but "70 down blocks"?? You only need one and that's the one that gets out of the way, didn't Mr.Miyagi say "best block is not be there when punch comes"? Merry Christmas everyone..... Mark -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 10:14 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE:The real benefits of Poomse Hi Kenneth, On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Kenneth Legendre wrote: > Hello All, If I were to tell you that a specific move was only for doing one particular thing. Your mind would close off to any other use for that move. I have a book here written by one of the members of this list, Mr. Rick Clark entitled "75 Down Blocks: Refining Karate Technique" I hope you found something in the book that was interesting. Thanks, Mr. Kenneth Legendre 5th Dan TKD Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 20:48:58 -0800 (PST) From: Leah Douglas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] on physical fitness Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello! Having just gotten my green belt recently, I am far from expert in TKD.  I have made a few observations, however, on the matter of fitness.  I hope no one minds if I share... One lady in my dojang has her 3rd dan black belt.  While she is heavyset, and may even fit the definition of obese, her blocks and strikes look sharp and effective to my fledgling eye.  I can also call her strong with some confidence, having sparred a bit with her!  There are a few other examples who I've come across, but I won't belabor the point.  While I support optimal fitness in students of martial arts, and especially black belt levels, having some extra around the middle doesn't seem to stop these folks. Like I said, just some observations... Yours in the martial arts, Leah Douglas --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: RE: The real benefits of poomse-meditative Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:55:46 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye I'd like to show you a video but sadly I can't access youtube from this computer. But I'd like you to look up ITF TKD Vs kyokoshin fight. I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement but what I am saying is TKD a catholic style. It has never claimed to be anything else. It has taken bits and pieces from all over the place. For example I'm a big fan of Jazz. The genre is not pure in any sense. It is fusion of so many things, blues, African rhythms, American swing; I could go on and on. And then when you see a band play live they may take a standard and improvise on it, give their own interpretation if you like. This is how I see my art. When a jazz player takes a standard give it his or her own twist, then s/he is not lessening that piece of music. They're actually paying homage to it. That's why those pieces are called standards because every jazz player worth his salt should know them. I guess this where the term jazzing things up comes from. I'm sure I don't need to mention that REAL fighting has all sorts of irregular rhythms and improvisation. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: 26 December 2008 23:56 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: RE: The real benefits of poomse-meditative Yeah I bet this is the case. I know some people may think TKD doesn't need improvements until they cross hands with people who train in those areas.   Jye --- On Thu, 12/25/08, Lee Morgan wrote:   But I'm not sure that TKD even wants to improve in this area---at least not WTF TKD.  Or maybe it's that TKD doesn't think it needs to improve in this area.  I _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,400 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest