Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 02:48:21 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 15 #352 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,400 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Scholarship at Dongseo University (Ray) 2. FW: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Rick) (Master Mark Seidel) 3. RE: Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Rick) (Rick Clark) 4. Re: The certain something (zisheged@aol.com) 5. Fitness (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Abundant sunlight (Ray) 7. Taekwondo Tour Promotion (Ray) 8. Physical Fitness (Lois Knorr) 9. Fw: Forrest Griffin vs Rashad Evans (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 07:20:40 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Scholarship at Dongseo University Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Begin forwarded message: From: Stephen Epstein Date: December 26, 2008 7:16:31 PM PST Dongseo University in Busan, South Korea is offering two one-year scholarships (tuition and board) to North American, European or Australasian undergraduate students of Asian or Korean studies who want to pursue language study. Applicants should e-mail a CV to Prof. Brian Myers, director of DSU’s Department of International Studies, along with a letter explaining their interest in the scholarship. E- mail address: brianmyers@hanmail.net. Students already studying in Korea are ineligible. Non-heritage students of the Korean language are especially encouraged to apply. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Cc: Subject: FW: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Rick) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 10:36:35 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net -----Original Message----- From: Mark Seidel [mailto:mhseidel@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:29 AM To: 'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net' Cc: 'mhseidel@comcast.net' Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Rick) Lee Well said; TKD does need fixing and I am working on that on my end, hope to meet you, ever get to Jackson? Maybe I already have and this old man doesn't remember. mark -----Original Message----- From: Lee Morgan [mailto:jlmhookkick@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 1:13 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Rick) Hi Rick. Thanks for your comments to my question about poomse. Not ignoring the comments from others here about KMA forms, I tend to agree with you. Now, I may be completely backwards on this and I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I tend to believe that the forms practiced in WTF TKD, and probably most KMA styles were developed in order to have a more purely "Korean" style. After all, it's a "2000 year old Korean Martial Art" that was practicing the Okinawan Katas---(even if they were the Japanese version of them) until the 1960's. I have an analogy that I like to use to try to explain what has happened to forms--especially those that are downstream from the Okinawan styles: Imagine a country where only a few people could read. You had only a handful of reading teachers who only taught one or two students to read during their lifetime. They would teach by having the students learn to write the alphebet. Then they would teach the sound each letter represented as they practiced writing the letters. Then they would have the student practice writing some of the letters together to form words, then sentences, then stories/poems/songs, etc... At some point, a foreign power took over this small country. The foreign rulers could not read the writing of this country, but still they ordered that all school children be taught how to read. Now, the few reading teachers that were there had never developed methods of teaching many people at a time, nor did they want very many people knowing how to read. So, they began teaching the students how to write each letter, then they had them copy words, sentences, and whole poems/stories over and over---but they never taught the students what sounds the letters represented. But the students practiced writing the stories that they couldn't read so much, that many of them developed superb penmanship. Imagine what would happen to the way the letters would be written after a few generations of this. With no meaning, the letters very form would loose meaning. Many of these students would grow to be teachers themselves. They would be asked "why are we writing these symbols over and over?" They would probably give many answers except the truth. Also, you would have some people begin to be more free with the way they wrote the letters---"it looks more beautiful if you write the letters like this". Or, "it's much more challenging if you write the letters like this". After a time, the letters/poems/stories would have been changed so much that even if someone who actually knew how to read saw them, he couldn't read them. It's my hope that there are people out there who want to preserve the "martial art" in TKD. I hope that it's not too late already. I've noticed that TKD is called a sport now more than it's called a martial art. I see no reason why it can't be both. But in order to fix TKD, the leaders of TKD have to see a need to fix it, and they have to be willing to let go of "national pride". In other words, they have to be willing to accept input from someone like you, who's not Korean. I'm beginning to think that even they don't think of TKD as a martial art anymore. Which is shameful, since it's marketed to the public as a "2000 year old Korean MARTIAL ART" that teaches "self-defense" among other things. If you think about it, teaching self defense is a very big responsibility. If you teach a student to do certain things in certain situations, you are helping that person to save his life, or to get hurt worse, or killed. It's a huge responsibility and should not be taken lightly. I hope I haven't offended anyone with these comments. Happy New Year!!! Lee Morgan --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:37:09 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: The real benefits of Poomse (Rick) To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mark, From: Master Mark Seidel [mailto:mastermark@comcast.net] Lee Well said; TKD does need fixing and I am working on that on my end, hope to meet you, ever get to Jackson? Maybe I already have and this old man doesn't remember. I wonder if TKD can be "fixed" with control of TKD firmly in the hands of groups like the ITF and WTF? The problems as I see them start with issues that revolve around power and control - and of course the money associated with power and control. Perhaps we (in the west) should do as the Koreans and before them the Japanese have done. Take control over the martial art system we have learned and change it to fit our own unique needs and desires. The Japanese did that with Karate and the Koreans did that with TKD. Many western instructors have studied the martial arts longer than the Koreans that dreamed up modern TKD and added their version of an ancient 2,000 year old martial art. mark -----Original Message----- From: Lee Morgan [mailto:jlmhookkick@gmail.com] Hi Rick. Thanks for your comments to my question about poomse. Not ignoring the comments from others here about KMA forms, I tend to agree with you. Now, I may be completely backwards on this and I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I tend to believe that the forms practiced in WTF TKD, and probably most KMA styles were developed in order to have a more purely "Korean" style. After all, it's a "2000 year old Korean Martial Art" that was practicing the Okinawan Katas---(even if they were the Japanese version of them) until the 1960's. Of course I agree with this - and I do understand why they did change the names and "developed" their own version of history. The animosity between the Koreans and Japanese goes back for centuries, not to mention the problems starting in 1911. It's my hope that there are people out there who want to preserve the "martial art" in TKD. I hope that it's not too late already. I've noticed that TKD is called a sport now more than it's called a martial art. Personally I think it's too late, you are right about it being a martial sport. There are too many out there that go along with the Olympic aspects of TKD, and factional differences between various TKD groups. I see no reason why it can't be both. But in order to fix TKD, the leaders of TKD have to see a need to fix it, and they have to be willing to let go of "national pride". In other words, they have to be willing to accept input from someone like you, who's not Korean. J not likely... I'm beginning to think that even they don't think of TKD as a martial art anymore. Which is shameful, since it's marketed to the public as a "2000 year old Korean MARTIAL ART" that teaches "self-defense" among other things. If you think about it, teaching self defense is a very big responsibility. If you teach a student to do certain things in certain situations, you are helping that person to save his life, or to get hurt worse, or killed. It's a huge responsibility and should not be taken lightly. I hope I haven't offended anyone with these comments. No offense from my part - I guess because I agree with you J Happy New Year!!! Dittos, Lee Morgan Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 4 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:03:51 -0500 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The certain something Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Of course I agree with those of you that have seen muscular guys get knocked out. I certainly agree that much more must be emphasized in forms other than memorizing them. But I am absolutely certain that everyone here has seen that kid come in as a white belt and throw very good kicks, be in great shape and just take to martial arts effortlessly. I have one of those kids right now and have seen quite a few over the years.? Not sure if its just coordination, natural fighting ability or whatever; but for sure that quality is not easily taught. I have seen it developed in many students. It's my feeling that physical fitness is a natural way to build confidence, absorb that blow when it can't be avoided and usually make for a great fighter. Muscles without skill doesn't work, skill without brawn is not very effective.? My dad used to say," Brains are more important than brawn, but I assure you...if you don't have brawn you'll get your brains knocked out!" Pop was right! Happy New Year all! Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:33:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fitness Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Leah writes: <> In my school I have had fitness requirements in place for many decades, and at one time I also would not allow anyone to pass without first passing the fitness test (that I would personally lead by example). Then I had an industrial accident that left me with a permanent back injury and quite out of shape. Facing the reality of never being able to do the things I once thought were a piece of cake, I had to do some heavy duty thinking about my situation. I loved the martial art, but I could not pass my own fitness requirements... what a dilemma. My conclusion was that I NEEDED to do as much as I could, had lots of expertise to share, and eager students waiting for me to return to open another school. So, I back pedaled from my original stance on fitness requirements to allow myself to get back to doing whatever I could. That was some 25 years ago, and at age 68 I can still manage to stay on the floor an entire weekend to teach seminars with no complaints and many younger folks dropping off like flies. Now I have several sets of requirements, and I push everyone to be the best they can be WITHOUT being exclusive. As Leah stated, folks can hold their own quite well without being ripped, and I can still beat butt if need be. Sure, I'll pay for it later, but I CAN do it. As far as forms are concerned: They are excellent "sport specific" training tools, and in some arts they have NOTHING to do with resembling an imaginary fight. In our art, we use forms to help us stay fit to the best of our ability. In fact, I regard doing techniques as practicing two man (or more) forms, because doing techniques in a controlled environment is NOTHING like fighting a real fight. Do forms help in a real fight? I have no idea, because I can't even remember what I did in any of the real fights I have been in (and unfortunately I have been in way too many). Do I do martial arts in a real fight? I am told I do, and I have also been asked why I used a bar stool or other handy item to shift the balance in my favor. My answer has always been the same... I wanted to survive. Warmest personal regards Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:42:01 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Abundant sunlight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Stick to ideals of taekwondo Malaysia. thestar.com I AM responding to the letter “No More punch in taekwondo” (StarEducation Dec 21), where a disgruntled parent had complained regarding the various taekwondo associations in Malaysia. Being an active practitioner and tutor of taekwondo for 32 years, I must explain that there are three main bodies regulating the practice of this martial arts worldwide, not to mention its many offshoots. There is the International Taekwon-do Federation (ITF), the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) and the Global Taekwon-do Federation (GTF). They practise distinct forms in terms of styles and have different priorities. For example ITF emphasises the traditional methods of Taekwondo, WTF the sports aspects, and GTF emphasises the self defence aspects of the art. These organisations in fact are branches of the same tree reaching out for the “abundant sunlight”. The scenario is the same all over the world. Malaysia which has the ITFM, MTA, MGTF is not spared the scrimmage. The government is attempting a merger of sorts with the taekwondo organisations. It is trying to look into the best interest of all parties concerned in ensuring the optimal growth of the martial arts in Malaysia. In reality, getting all the organisations under one umbrella body, though ideal, would not be so easy to achieve since the current situation is dictated by the international status quo. So let us not raise our hopes. As for the acceptance and recognition by other schools or associations, I have students from WTF joining my classes without any loss of seniority. The techniques and fundamentals are the same. They will only need to put in the extra effort to learn some new patterns and movements. That extra effort and knowledge gained will go towards making them more complete exponents of this ancient martial arts. So I do not feel that changing schools would be a problem, as long as we maintain the right attitude, remain humble and be willing to learn. My advice to the writer is to guide her children to practise until they excel in whatever taekwondo system they have been using. Her children must be told that becoming accomplished sportsmen should not be the ultimate goal, but excelling is. The greatest obstacle and rival they will ever meet will be their own perceived limitations. Guide them to focus their youthful energy on learning and embodying the true spirit and ideals of the sport. Capability, knowledge and supremacy in martial arts lie solely in the degree to which the individual exponent practices the techniques and fundamentals taught by whichever instructor or association. In fact the true essence of taekwondo lies in the core values of discipline, courtesy, humility and respect. KOU LOONG --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 07:25:17 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo Tour Promotion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo Tour Promotion Set to Kick Off Next Year Kim Rahn The Korea Times 12-28-2008 The nation's tourism agency said Sunday it and other state organizations will launch a campaign to promote Taekwondo as a vehicle to attract more inbound tourists. Taekwondo presentations will be held four times a week in a government effort to promote the national martial arts as a tourist program. The Korea Tourism Organization (KTO) said it will join hands with the Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism, Seoul City, Gangnam-gu and Kukkiwon, the World Taekwondo Headquarters, for a joint promotion plan to attract 12,000 foreign visitors next year. As the country lacks performances or other programs through which tourists can experience taekwondo, the authorities decided to hold two taekwondo presentations weekly at Kukkiwon, in addition to the other two which have been held in Gyeonghee Palace. The Kukkiwon presentations, starting in February, will be on the itinerary of Gangnam tour packages. The authorities are also considering holding indoor performances if outdoor ones at Gyeonghee Palace are cancelled because of bad weather. ``About 70 million people in 188 countries are taekwondo trainees. Only about 7,000 people came to Korea this year to visit the country where taekwondo originated, but we see a high potential in the martial arts-related tour programs in attracting tourists,'' a KTO official said. He said about 70,000 visitors are expected to come here in 2012 when a Taekwondo Park opens in Muju, North Jeolla Province. The tour agency plans to hold a series of explanation sessions through its 26 overseas branches to attract more foreign tourists and strengthen other international publicity activities. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:00:17 -0800 (PST) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Physical Fitness Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ..."I will not accept anyone going past blue belt that is not in good physical shape. Zeishe"...   Here again we come to the question of standards versus universality.  If a person is at a high level of physical fitness for their physical ability, are they any less fit to progress beyond blue belt than someone who is capable of much more?  As a 58 year old second dan with a heart condition and other physical ailments (gifts from over-training as a much younger martial artist), this question has caused me a lot of pain.  I finally came to peace with myself by striving to become the best martial artist I can be at this point in my life.  Of course, I could never have progressed without the judgement of my instructor that I am fit to wear the belt he has given me.  Any others, I leave their judgement where it belongs -- with them. __________________________________________________________________ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:33:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fw: Forrest Griffin vs Rashad Evans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.youku.com/user_show/id_1336362.html --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest