Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:48:27 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #13 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Use of "master" title (zisheged@aol.com) 2. Master Bader (freddie bishop) 3. Re: Re: Use of "master" title (Ray) 4. RE: Re: Use of "master" title (Rick Clark) 5. Re: master instructor (in CMA) (Christopher Spiller) 6. Re: RE: master instructor (Lee Morgan) 7. NC State considers S Korea campus (Ray) 8. Was Koryo dyanasty's King Gongmin homosexual? (Ray) 9. Re: Was Koryo dyanasty's King Gongmin homosexual? (daomyer@aol.com) 10. Re: Was Koryo dyanasty's King Gongmin homosexual? (Ray) 11. considered the best in the world ? (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:50:33 -0500 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Use of "master" title Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I too always believed that 4th dan in WTF meant you had attained the status of master. I've since heard some conflicting things. For example, if you are the cheif teacher in your school and not yet a 4th dan, you can call yourself master as it relates to your school. Others have told me that even if you've attained 4th dan, there is an informal test to see if you are a master and are given some certification towards that end. 4th seems a little low and th a bit high. I ought to be 5th or 6th dan...my deflated 2 cents worth here. Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:59:42 -0800 (PST) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Bader Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Oh man, I guess I'd be getting used for a throwing dummy cause I'd be laughing at the guys name and title. It may be disrespectful, but I'd still be laughing my butt off. Fred --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Use of "master" title Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:03:45 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've never heard the part about a 2nd Dan chief teacher in a school being able to call themselves a legit Master, but I guess they could call themselves the Pope if they really wanted. I'd think "chief instructor" would be more legit, but they haven't put me in charge yet... There are instructor's classes and certifications held regularly by the Kukkiwon (for 4th Dan and higher I believe), but to date those at 4th Dan and higher in this country are not required to have taken the test to promote others to 1st Dan. Really the unpublished bottom line is if you have a school with students and you want to promote several of them to 1st Dan, even tho you may only be a 2nd, with some work you can set up a school account directly with the Kukkiwon and, well, proceed to promote your students and yourself... Ray > I too always believed that 4th dan in WTF meant you had attained the > status of master. I've since heard some conflicting things. For > example, if you are the cheif teacher in your school and not yet a > 4th dan, you can call yourself master as it relates to your school. > Others have told me that even if you've attained 4th dan, there is > an informal test to see if you are a master and are given some > certification towards that end. 4th seems a little low and th a bit > high. I ought to be 5th or 6th dan...my deflated 2 cents worth here. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:25:48 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Use of "master" title To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At the risk of offending anyone I would think that a 5th dan is the bare minimum rank for "master". I have always heard that 1st & 2nd dan were students, 3rd and 4th were competitors ranks, and at 5th dan was where you became a "teacher". I have been told from a good source that if you were teaching wrestling in a Japanese school and the principal came and told you to teach a Judo class (even if you had no rank) the Kodokan would promote you to a 5th dan, because you were not to teach Judo unless you were a 5th dan. Personally I don't care for the term "master" it gives some connotations that seem rather uncomfortable to me - of course that's just personal but never the less others may feel the same. Rick Clark > -----Original Message----- > From: zisheged@aol.com [mailto:zisheged@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 7:51 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Use of "master" title > > I too always believed that 4th dan in WTF meant you had attained the > status of master. I've since heard some conflicting things. For > example, if you are the cheif teacher in your school and not yet a 4th > dan, you can call yourself master as it relates to your school. Others > have told me that even if you've attained 4th dan, there is an informal > test to see if you are a master and are given some certification > towards that end. 4th seems a little low and th a bit high. I ought to > be 5th or 6th dan...my deflated 2 cents worth here. > > > > Zeishe > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:53:50 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: master instructor (in CMA) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>if we are to jot down the importance of things to the higher ranked korean instructors I wonder what they would deem as important in the MA? I also wonder where fighting would rank? I ask this because I chit chat with Novell G Bell from time to time and he is always telling me that in the CMA the primary focus seems to be on forms; performing them extremely well. He feels they place them over fighting so much so that many chinese teachers can't apply their martial art in a realtime unrehearse manner; but they can do some nice looking forms. Jye<< That's an interesting comment. But it is *not* my experience with instructors in CMA. Not at all. Pax, Chris --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:48:35 -0500 From: Lee Morgan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: RE: master instructor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: "if we are to jot down the importance of things to the higher ranked korean instructors I wonder what they would deem as important in the MA? I also wonder where fighting would rank? I ask this because I chit chat with Novell G Bell from time to time and he is always telling me that in the CMA the primary focus seems to be on forms; performing them extremely well. He feels they place them over fighting so much so that many chinese teachers can't apply their martial art in a realtime unrehearse manner; but they can do some nice looking forms." I think it's an interesting discussion. But regarding the CMA discussion I believe that you can't really place all the CMA together since there are so many and some CMA are as different from other CMA as a flute is to an electric guitar. But your question is interesting. What does define a master? I think there would be as many answers as there are martial artists. I personally don't like anyone calling me a master, because in my mind it implies that I've actually mastered something----the truth is that I have never ever executed a perfect technique in my life. I've never even thrown a perfect punch before. So, what have I mastered? But then again, according to that view, there would be no masters because it's imposible to throw the perfect punch---it could always be faster, more powerful, more accurate, etc...I guess that's one of the many things that makes it an art. It seems that in many martial styles, not just KMA, the title of master is just a rank like Colonel, or General. And as I'm sure many of you know from experience, there are those high ranking brass that you respect and you believe have actually earned that respect, and those that you don't respect----but still, the office/title they hold should be respected. I think my view on "master" is probably a little different than many because in my first style there were no ranks or titles, just techniques that work and techniques that you haven't made work yet. Lee Morgan --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:11:59 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] NC State considers S Korea campus Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Begin forwarded message: NC State considers S Korea campus The university will get a $1 million grant from the nation's government to study the proposal. (Raleigh) News & Observer Posted: Friday, Jan. 09, 2009 http://www.charlotteobserver.com/breaking/story/461093.html CHAPEL HILL N.C. State University got thumbs up Thursday to accept $1 million from the South Korean government to study the idea of building a campus at a $200 billion economic development park taking shape near the port city of Incheon, and next door to Seoul. It would be the university's first overseas campus, though it has programs in a host of other countries, including India and China. South Korea already is a key trading partner for North Carolina, buying more than $400 million goods from the state annually. The state has one of its six overseas economic development offices there. The new campus would not only give N.C. State an Asian hub of operations but also could expand the state's economic development reach, university officials told members of a UNC Board of Governors committee. The committee endorsed the idea unanimously. Approval by the full board today was expected to be little more than a formality. The campus would be built in a new park called the Incheon Free Economic Zone, which N.C. State's proposal to the board of governors describes as a $200 billion next-generation version of Research Triangle Park. The feasibility study would include developing a business plan so that the new campus wouldn't need any financial support from North Carolina. The South Korean government has told university officials it's willing to pay at least $1 million annually for five years for planning and startup costs. It's also expected to build the campus, including laboratories, research facilities and housing for students and faculty. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:56:53 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Was Koryo dyanasty's King Gongmin homosexual? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Homosexuality in history JoongAng Ilbo Daily January 10, 2009 The Sacred Band of Thebes was an elite army in Thebes, a city state of ancient Greece, consisting of 150 pairs of homosexual lovers. They were reputed as unrivaled in battle until they were annihilated by Macedonian troops led by Alexander the Great, in 338 B.C. According to historian Plutarch, “a band cemented by friendship grounded upon love is never to be broken, and invincible; since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another.” History has shown that some armies emphasizing masculinity have had homosexual connections. Among the five guiding principles for the Hwarang, an elite group of male youth in the Silla Dynasty, some people maintain that one of its five commandments, “faithfulness to one’s friends” implies more than its literal meaning. The film “Ssanghwajeom,” which premiered late last year, saw more than 1.5 million viewers in its first week of release, and has caused a furor. The film explicitly depicts a homosexual relationship between a Goryeo king (played by Joo Jin-mo), and his bodyguard Hong-rim (Zo In-sung). A controversy has arisen over whether the homosexual relationship, played by handsome actors, was a cunning marketing ploy or a justified interpretation. Some argue that the film misrepresents the king. If we assume that the king in question was Gongmin, the film’s major features are remarkably true to historic records. After the death of his Mongolian-born queen, Noguk, King Gongmin descended into a life of homosexual debauchery, hiring a team of handsome male bodyguards of noble birth to serve in the palace in 1372. This was a tragedy in the making. One of the bodyguards made King Gongmin’s second wife pregnant. Gongmin tried to kill him to quell the scandal, but was killed by the bodyguard’s friends instead. So was King Gongmin homosexual? Some historians insist that he was slandered in an attempt to justify the founding of the Joseon Dynasty, and that the youths were just bodyguards. This is an equally plausible interpretation, considering the social atmosphere of the time. These arguments are all based on the viewpoint that homosexuality is a sin. If historians of the future lived in today’s world, where “Ssanghwajeom” has been the talk of the town since its release, and where kissing scenes between handsome actors are regarded necessary for female viewers, what would they think? --__--__-- Message: 9 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Was Koryo dyanasty's King Gongmin homosexual? Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:42:06 -0500 From: daomyer@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am reminded of the Monty Python line...."and now for something totally different" ? Homosexuality in history? JoongAng Ilbo Daily? January 10, 2009? ? : http://the-dojang.net? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Was Koryo dyanasty's King Gongmin homosexual? Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:27:01 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just an article from Korea with reference to something that Craig slipped in between the lines a few days ago regarding the Hwarang warriors. "History has shown that some armies emphasizing masculinity have had homosexual connections. Among the five guiding principles for the Hwarang, an elite group of male youth in the Silla Dynasty, some people maintain that one of its five commandments, “faithfulness to one’s friends” implies more than its literal meaning." And as mentioned in Seinfeld: The Outing --- "not that there is anything wrong with that..." Ray On Jan 10, 2009, at 12:42 PM, daomyer@aol.com wrote: > I am reminded of the Monty Python line...."and now for something > totally different" --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:56:37 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] considered the best in the world ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Martin Peterson heads to Mexico for training The taekwondo center in Loma, Mexico is considered the best in the world Panama City Panama Star 01-10-2009 Taekwondo instructor Martín Peterson heads to the Sports Center La Loma, in México, on January 14 to nourish his knowledge of the discipline. The center is considered the best high performance taekwondo center in the world. Peterson, who will be taking the “Masters in taekwondo high sports performance and applied sciences” month-long course, thanked the support that PANDEPORTES has given him and feels happy to be one of 10 people chosen worldwide to visit the center. Peterson said , the course will be lead by professor Ireno Fargas, two time world champion in taekwondo, and who coached two medal winning Olympic athletes one winning gold medal for Mexico and another who took silver for the Dominican Republic at the Beijing Olympics. “The purpose is to bring these knowledge and share them with coaches and athletes in all provinces; I am happy and thank God for this opportunity.” It is worth mentioning that Martin Peterson recently reached the IV Dan level, presented by the great master Jung Hoe Ku (IX Dan kukiwon). Jung Hoe Ku is known worldwide as someone who helped spread Taekwondo across more than 85 countries, a mission he fulfilled as a special envoy from Korea. He was two times national champion in Korea, a --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest