Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:55:02 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #15 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: school operators (Thomas Gordon) 2. "Master" (Jerry) 3. RE: dan tester (J R Hilland) 4. RE: school operators (Dennis Overall) 5. RE: "Master" (Dennis Overall) 6. Re: "Master" (Ray) 7. the "Master" word (Jerry) 8. RE: "Master" (Thomas Gordon) 9. RE: "Master" (Thomas Gordon) 10. RE: "Master" (Dennis Overall) 11. Re: Sparring (zisheged@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] school operators Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:07:31 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Bishop, A trying economy requires fresh ideas. In this economy, our martial art school is growing... and we're the most expensive in the area. The media is scaring the crap out of people and the dumb sheep believe it. And in fairness, in SOME areas, it IS bad - but not as bad as the media makes out. Can it get worse? Sure, when Uncle Sam goes belly up, we're all in trouble. And some sectors are feeling the crunch. But right now, government employees SHOULD be in better position. Right now houses are extremely cheap, mortgage rates are at an all time low, huge discounts on new vehicles, and cost of fuel is lowest it's been in almost a decade. So school teachers, city workers, etc should have MORE disposable income in their pockets. Why are they not buying? Because the media is scaring them. Okay, so how to overcome this? Offer discounts - this month we're doing a two for one New Years promotion. Next month is Couples Promotion (uh...that's a two for one kinda thing...but we didn't want to do the SAME promotion...). NEW members sign up and we let them bring a friend/sibling/spouse for no charge for the first month. However, they DO sign up for a year. Some people say contracts are evil...and they can keep saying that working their full time job supplementing their part time martial art habit. Don't make your existing student base agitated by "forgetting them" - we offer discounts every month on stuff WE need to move. This month is long sleeve school shirts. We'll have ZERO need for those in a few months - let's move it now. $2 off. Good deal for everyone. Current students get to bring a buddy. We have birthday parties and things like that. Sleepovers, lock-ins, etc. Hope that helps. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:40:13 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jerry Subject: [The_Dojang] "Master" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dennis, With all due respect, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I DO understand the martial arts, what I do NOT agree with is using a title of "master". One of the implications of that is if there is a "Master" then there must be a "slave". While I honor those who have reached the achievement of Master Instructor, and while I may be ignorant on many many subjects (I hope I never stop learnging!) I have trouble with using this particular term. I'm not sure why we would call someone with that level of experience and expertise as "Master" and not do the same for those in other key areas like teaching. Having some family history of being enslaved just isn't helping me accept this either. Respectfully submitted, Jerry > > >Message: 2 >From: Dennis Overall >To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" > >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Master" >Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:41:12 -0500 >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >One of the 1st lessons of martial arts is being humble. I am very proud of >the instructor, teacher, mentor, and the list goes on, of the person that I >call Master. I have been under his wing for over 33 years. I have train and >studied several different arts in different countries and have never met >anyone of his equal or with his knowledge. He has earned the title of Master. >Someone that doesn't understand the true concept of martial arts will not >understand the title of Master. Real martial arts is a way of life, a >lifestyle. No insult intended that is just the way it is. >Master O> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:09:50 -0500> To: >the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> From: jerseyj@superlink.net> Subject: >[The_Dojang] "Master"> > I'm not especially fond of that title either. Someone >being my > "Master" comes loaded with lots of connotations that I don't like. >I > have no problem addressing the person as "Master Instructor", because > >presumably they are that. "Sir" or "Ma'am" seems to work real well > too >*smile*.> > Jerry> -- >_________________________________________________________________ >Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. >http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 > >-- __--__-- -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin It's also true that those who would give up privacy for security are likely to end up with neither. It's not the years in your life that count, but the life in your years" "Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional" "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement and success have no meaning." - Benjamin Franklin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:32:29 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: dan tester Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Chris for the update on the ITF. Re: dan tester. My students who have a dojang are never told they can't test their students. If they are teaching them they should be able to test them, otherwise they shouldn't be teaching. I had a student back in college who also studied with Ed Parker's group. This poor fellow traveled every year to test for his 1st dan with Parker's group (the whole US on one day/weekend). For several years in a row he never even got the chance to test (after traveling across the country) as they never got to everyone. After 3 years he just gave up. Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com 30th International Hapkido & KMA Clinic March 13-15, 2009 www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Dennis Overall To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] school operators Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:58:00 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can they afford not too?> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 06:46:16 -0800> From: mauler681@yahoo.com> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Subject: [The_Dojang] school operators> > How will your school survive the economic crisis? You can advertise all the bells and whistles of your school but when it comes down to it, can your students and prospective students pay your fee?> > Fred> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Dennis Overall To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Master" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You are so very right Thomas. To me Master means Servant. Look at what you really are at the Master level. You are at a place in life that if you are truly martial arts master, then it is your duty to serve. There is nothing arrogant about servitude. It is the most humble position one can hold. Passing great knowledge that took years of practice, perserverance, and sweat equity. I teach that martial arts is 15% skill and 85% mind. Most people only expect or only want to see skill. How many student really understand the five tenants of Tae Kwon Do? I remember when I first became Blackbelt. I couldn't wait. Afterwards I felt that I didn't really know much at all because there was still so much more to learn. As Master I am still on my walk to more knowledge, not just skill. Yes, Master is a humble position. Master O > From: tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Master"> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:28:32 -0600> > Hey, you'll love my signature line. LOL!> > To the non-martial artist, the master title may be a bit over the top.> "Master" doesn't mean lordship or have any worship connotations. At least> not at our school. Master is used in most all trades. We have master> plumbers, master mechanical, master of arts in college, and master hard> drive. In the Military, we have Master Sergeant and even Senior Master> Sergeant. In martial arts, "master" means someone has reached a certain> level in their training and instruction - nothing more.> > Sincerely,> > Thomas Gordon> Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 > www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "Master" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:45:48 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Or not... Merriam-Webster says; Master Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Anglo-French meistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large — more at much Date: before 12th century 1 a (1): a male teacher (2): a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's boften capitalized : a revered religious leader c: a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1): an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2): a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal Ray > One of the implications of > that is if there is a "Master" then there must be > a "slave". --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:19:38 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jerry Subject: [The_Dojang] the "Master" word Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tom, I have no issue with "Master's Seminars" just like I have no issue when an accomplished musician has a "Master Class", nor to Master of Arts, Master Plumbers or any of the other terms you mentioned, much like I have no issue with someone being called "Master Instructor" and indication that someone has reached a certain level in their training and instruction. My issue is using the word "Master" as a word just by itself to describe that, which has many negative connotations for many people. Jerry > > >Message: 4 >From: "Thomas Gordon" >To: >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Master" >Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:28:32 -0600 >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Hey, you'll love my signature line. LOL! > >To the non-martial artist, the master title may be a bit over the top. >"Master" doesn't mean lordship or have any worship connotations. At least >not at our school. Master is used in most all trades. We have master >plumbers, master mechanical, master of arts in college, and master hard >drive. In the Military, we have Master Sergeant and even Senior Master >Sergeant. In martial arts, "master" means someone has reached a certain >level in their training and instruction - nothing more. > >Sincerely, > >Thomas Gordon >Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 >www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin It's also true that those who would give up privacy for security are likely to end up with neither. It's not the years in your life that count, but the life in your years" "Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional" "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement and success have no meaning." - Benjamin Franklin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Master" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:33:01 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master is just a title. Some earn it and some buy it. For martial artists, it SHOULD be a higher level of instructor. And as posted, an instructor is basically a servant - a master instructor should be a better servant? :) I don't sign my name with master. On places you'll see where I post on our website as "Master Gordon" because that is my position in the martial art world but I have never stood in front of a group of people and introduced myself as "Master Gordon." If that comes up, which is rare, I introduce myself as "Thomas Gordon, a master level instructor." Just like an expert marksman - it means I hit a level in my training - nothing more. Expert marksman still miss...just not as much as the novice. Some people insist their students call them by their martial art title outside of class. While this may be a bit odd in many settings and rather pompous to insist on such formality, isn't it curious that it's commonly accepted to call your physician "Dr. SoAndSo" when you see them outside of their professional setting? Generally, I call my instructors Mr./Mrs. when in public and by their formal title while in class or around students. In my estimation, that's acceptable etiquettes. The seminar we host in April is subtitled, "Master's Seminars" - people want a certain level of instruction. I doubt anyone would come if I called it "Novice Seminars - Come Spread the Ignorance." These guys are experts in their field - not demigods - just been doing it for a while - and most of them are pretty humble. Had a few arrogant folks want to teach and I turned them away. Makes us all look bad and messes up the good vibes we're trying to build. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Master" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:38:07 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Jerry, "I'm not sure why we would call someone with that level of experience and expertise as 'Master' and not do the same for those in other key areas like teaching." Well, having a MBA/MBS means more money for a school teacher. The world is full of master level whatevers. http://www.gamasterteachers.org/ http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/edu/986904931.html Type in "master educator" in a search engine and see what pops up. All kinds of stuff from legit services like nursing, school teachers, and college professors to the get rich crap. So if I were in the military (Army, Airforce, or Marines) and a Master Sergeant walked up...I'd call him...?? Then when the E-8 walks up, surely a fella wouldn't choke on "Senior Master" :) Here's an applicable quote, "A master can tell you what he expects of you. A teacher, though, awakens your own expectations." - Patricia Neal Reading that quote above, to me, a "master instructor" is a combination of teacher and master. "Having some family history of being enslaved just isn't helping me accept this either." No offense, but sounds like a personal hang up. My family tree has men fighting/dying on both sides of that war...but I've never owned anyone and no one has ever owned me...well...except the bride and she surely has me under her thumb. :) Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Dennis Overall To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Master" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:06:00 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Excuse me but I do not think that the Koreans had slavery in mind when the title of Master was designated as a position of rank in martial arts. Jesus is my Master! He does not have slaves either. We are proud when we master certain skills. Think of this...Jesus ancestors were in bondage for a very long time. Is he not your Master ( If you are a Christian)? No offense but what title if you decide to remain in martial arts and acheive 5th Dan or above should the world address you by? Mr. teacher, Mr. Instructor. You cannot compare apples to oranges in martial arts. Please do not degrade the people with such high integrity and love for their fellow man, brother to think that the title Master carries the same meaning as it did in the days way before you even existed or experienced. We celebrate more rights and freedom today than we ever did in any othr time in the history of this world. By the way, three of the most respected Masters that train me were black men. I call them Master. Master O > Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:40:13 -0500> To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> From: jerseyj@superlink.net> Subject: [The_Dojang] "Master"> > Dennis,> > With all due respect, I guess we are going to> have to agree to disagree. I DO understand the> martial arts, what I do NOT agree with is using a> title of "master". One of the implications of> that is if there is a "Master" then there must be> a "slave". While I honor those who have reached> the achievement of Master Instructor, and while I> may be ignorant on many many subjects (I hope I> never stop learnging!) I have trouble with using> this particular term.> > I'm not sure why we would call someone with that> level of experience and expertise as "Master" and> not do the same for those in other key areas like> teaching. Having some family history of being> enslaved just isn't helping me accept this either.> > Respectfully submitted,> Jerry> >> >> >Message: 2> >From: Dennis Overall > >To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net"> > > >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Master"> >Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:41:12 -0500> >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> >> >One of the 1st lessons of martial arts is being humble. I am very proud of> >the instructor, teacher, mentor, and the list goes on, of the person that I> >call Master. I have been under his wing for over 33 years. I have train and> >studied several different arts in different countries and have never met> >anyone of his equal or with his knowledge. He has earned the title of> Master.> >Someone that doesn't understand the true concept of martial arts will not> >understand the title of Master. Real martial arts is a way of life, a> >lifestyle. No insult intended that is just the way it is.> >Master O> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:09:50 -0500> To:> >the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> From: jerseyj@superlink.net> Subject:> >[The_Dojang] "Master"> > I'm not especially fond of that title either.> Someone> >being my > "Master" comes loaded with lots of connotations that I don't> like.> >I > have no problem addressing the person as "Master Instructor", because >> >presumably they are that. "Sir" or "Ma'am" seems to work real well > too> >*smile*.> > Jerry> --> >_________________________________________________________________> >Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.> >http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009> >> >-- __--__-- > > --> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++> "Those who would give up essential liberty to> purchase a little temporary safety, deserve> neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin> > It's also true that those who would give up> privacy for security are likely to end up with> neither.> > It's not the years in your life that count, but the life in your years"> > "Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional"> > "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement,> achievement and success have no meaning." - Benjamin Franklin> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++> _______________________________________________> The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_explore_ 012009 --__--__-- Message: 11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:45:20 -0500 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know one school (TKD-WTF) in New York that doesn't do any sparring whatever and many others that do it at a minimum. They contend, or at least it's what they tell me, that they have insurance worries. That may be possible but getting a black belt without fighting seems really strange. Poomsae are very important, I've already said enough about fitness, drills etc. make up our art. Finding the correct balance of all things including muk yum, weapons, Korean terminology is difficult but is the realm of the instructor's perogative. CMA is not unique in the respect of sparring free training. It's very important to visit as many schools within reach to make an opinion. I also recommend looking for Kukkiwon certificates posted.? Last, I don't recommend cross training until one attains ChoDan. Zeishe --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest