Date: January 12, 2009 5:45:01 PM PST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #16 - 13 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: the "Master" word (Jye nigma) 2. Re: Master (Kevin Janisse) 3. RE: Re: Master (michael tomlinson) 4. economy and schools (jeff kiral) 5. Journal of Asian Martial Arts (aburrese@aol.com) 6. Master (Rudy Timmerman) 7. International Combatives Self Defense Association (TNT Martial =20 Arts-Hillsboro) 8. RE: economy and schools (Dennis Overall) 9. Re: Journal of Asian Martial Arts (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Re: Sparring (Jye nigma) 11. Re: Re: Master (Jye nigma) 12. "Master" (Curt McCauley) 13. RE: Master (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:42:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] the "Master" word To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I feel the same way. As a black man I can honestly say that I will =20 never refer to anyone as Master and definitely not "My Master". I've seen some =20 refer to their instructors as "my master" that's fine for them, not for me. Jye --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Jerry wrote: Tom, I have no issue with "Master's Seminars" just like I have no issue when an accomplished musician has a "Master Class", nor to Master of Arts, Master Plumbers or any of the other terms you mentioned, much like I have no issue with someone being called "Master Instructor" and indication that someone has reached a certain level in their training and instruction. My issue is using the word "Master" as a word just by itself to describe that, which has many negative connotations for many people. Jerry --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:09:03 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Master Gordon, "Novice Seminars - Come Spread the Ignorance." That's great! I would not of expected anything less from you...lol A title like that would certainly bring in the wrong crowd. Over the years of training and teaching I have run across many martial =20= artists that would comment on the title of master in regard to "they are not my master" yet when they reached a "master" level they had no issue with =20= the title. Another thing I have noticed is that the honorary title of =20 master seems to be used by fellow masters as a token of respect and =20 acknowledgment. The use of titles can be twisted and warped to fit anyone's agenda and =20= changed just the same (look at are new government). As noted in the other =20 posts, a true master is one who can serve in a mastering way. He/She has =20 mastered (we hope) the ability to share/teach to others to teach what they have =20 learned in a clear and concise manner. This is similar to a school master who =20 helps other teachers and runs the school. I hope that I and fellow masters =20= can show this in a unselfish and pride-less manner so future teachers/masters =20 will have the right idea and attitude. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 3 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:39:56 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't like the title of Master I prefer to be called "the purple =20 spandexed dragon slayer".... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Hotmail=AE: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. = http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_exp= lore_ 012009 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:01:46 -0800 (PST) From: jeff kiral To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] economy and schools Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Original message: -- __--__--=20 Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] school operators Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:07:31 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Bishop, A trying economy requires fresh ideas. In this economy, our martial art school is growing... and we're the most expensive in the area. The media is scaring the crap out of people and the dumb sheep believe =20= it. And in fairness, in SOME areas, it IS bad - but not as bad as the media makes out. Can it get worse? Sure, when Uncle Sam goes belly up, we're all in trouble. And some sectors are feeling the crunch. But right now, government employees SHOULD be in better position. Right now houses are extremely cheap, mortgage rates are at an all time low, huge discounts =20= on new vehicles, and cost of fuel is lowest it's been in almost a decade. reply: Mr. Gordon, No offense, but you live in Florida...the media isn't just scaring dumb sheep...up here in Ohio things are bad, and have been for some years =20 now, especially if you are in any manufacturing or support trade. Gas =20 pricess did go down a bit and it helped, but they are going back up again. Food =20 prices have not dropped, and even though house prices and interest rates are =20= down, no one around here can afford to buy one, only lose one. New car? yeah =20 right! If you don't have a job, its very hard to find one, and if you have one, =20= everyday is a question of if it will be there tomorrow. I don't run a school, =20 but I know people that do and they have been hit hard by the lack of money =20 in the area. Not trying to turn this into a political discussion, just wanted =20= to chime in. With luck and time things will get better, at least we all =20 hope so! Jeff --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:17:24 -0500 From: aburrese@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Journal of Asian Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just received an e-mail that JAMA will no longer be sold in stores. You will have to subscribe to get a print version and it looks like there will be an on-line version as well. I have a review coming out in the next issue, and I think that is why I am on the e-mail list. Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 6 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:55:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jerry writes: While I honor those who have reached the achievement of Master Instructor, and while I may be ignorant on many many subjects (I hope I never stop learning!) I have trouble with using this particular term. Hello Jerry: I think that the term is just what you make of it. For some, the term is a goal they seek, for others it is a millstone that was placed around their neck. Many miss use it because they have neither reached the level of expertise that the Webster dictionary attaches to the name, nor have they been elevated to that rank by having been around long enough to have "raised" a number of Instructors that might have created a need for differentiation such as Chief Instructor or Master. Some call themselves Chief Master while they have not "raised" a single Master of their own, and humble folks (the trademark of a good black belt in many groups) would readily understand there is no need to be a Chief unless there are others Masters in your school that might dictate a need for such differentiation. Some go even a step further and call themselves Grand Master. Unfortunately, they don't even realize that the term is definitely NOT something most grand masters have yearned for. For me, the term means that I am getting old, AND my teacher is dead. After all, the term is akin to 'Grand Pa", and we all know that most grand pas are getting on in age when you do the simple math on how one becomes a grandpa. In martial arts, humility would/should automatically dictate that you would not WANT to out rank the highest Instructor in your particular group; thus, it would almost certainly mean that this Instructor has passed on. Not a thing to be happy about for most. Now we DO have the glory seekers that can't wait to be called Master even though they have not raised a single Instructor of their own, and we Do have grand masters who COULD not legitimately elevate someone to Master level because they have not stuck around long enough to learn the curriculum to that point. I say that because these kind of folks seldom stick around long enough, because they are waaay too impatient to do the time in grade most orgs require. They usually "know it all" long before that, so they move on. Often they are not happy with the title grand master in the end, so they invent a new term such as "supreme" grand master lol. We can't rid ourselves from these kind of people, but we surely can try to educate our students to understand that these are terms not sought after by most people who have truly "earned" the title. On the other end of the scale we have students who HAVE been around for a long time. Heck, some of them may have even stuck with the same Master in all that time; however, some of those "others" may not have had the ability (for whatever reason) to pick up on the actual SKILL levels that should be part and parcel of the term Master. So, having the "time in grade" does not automatically qualify one to be called Master. Hence, it might be that the humble thing to do is to allow our peers to call us by that term to avoid being pompous. We have colored belts because we perceive a NEED to show progression in our students, and once we progress past colored belt levels we have titles for the same reason. I do not think most colored belts would consider White Belts slaves, and I do not think most Masters consider their Instructors slaves either. I can NOT help it if some Instructors feel that way because they misunderstand the term. There is an old proverb that goes something like this: "That the birds of worry and care fly over my head, I can't prevent... that they build nests in my hair, I CAN prevent". This simple line of words have come to my aid often whenever I allow my worries to overshadow the reality that MY life is only as good as I personally make it regardless of what others think. Warmest personal regards Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "TNT Martial Arts-Hillsboro" To: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:00:26 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] International Combatives Self Defense Association Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone, I rec'd an email from this group...anyone know anything good/bad about =20= them? Thanks, Mark Gajdostik TNT Martial Arts 503-640-8400 www.martialartshillsboro.com <<<<<>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Dennis Overall To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] economy and schools Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:29:33 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Where's our bailout??? Master O> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:01:46 -0800> From: = jeff.kiralpfce@att.net=20 > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Subject: [The_Dojang] economy =20= and schools> > Original message:> -- __--__-- > > Message: 1> From: =20 "Thomas Gordon" > To: =20 > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] school operators> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 =20 19:07:31 -0600> Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> > Mr Bishop,> > A =20= trying economy requires fresh ideas. In this economy, our martial art> =20 school is growing... and we're the most expensive in the area. > > The media is =20= scaring the crap out of people and the dumb sheep believe it.> And in =20 fairness, in SOME areas, it IS bad - but not as bad as the media> makes out. Can =20 it get worse? Sure, when Uncle Sam goes belly up, we're> all> in trouble. =20 And some sectors are feeling the crunch. But right now,> government employees =20= SHOULD be in better position. Right now houses are> extremely cheap, =20 mortgage rates are at an all time low, huge discounts on> new vehicles, and cost of =20 fuel is lowest it's been in almost a decade. > > > reply:> > Mr. Gordon,> > =20= No offense, but you live in Florida...the media isn't just scaring dumb> sheep...up here in Ohio things are bad, and have been for some years =20 now,> especially if you are in any manufacturing or support trade. Gas =20 pricess did > go down a bit and it helped, but they are going back up again. Food =20 prices> have not dropped, and even though house prices and interest rates are =20= down, no> one around here can afford to buy one, only lose one. New car? =20 yeah right! If> you don't have a job, its very hard to find one, and if you have =20 one, everyday> is a question of if it will be there tomorrow. I don't run a =20= school, but I> know people that do and they have been hit hard by the lack of =20= money in the> area. Not trying to turn this into a political discussion, just =20 wanted to> chime in. With luck and time things will get better, at least we =20 all hope so!> > Jeff> _______________________________________________> =20 The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net> =20 Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers =20 apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009= --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:07:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Journal of Asian Martial Arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Has anyone noticed a lot of the MA magazines aren't in many grocery =20 stores anymore? I was watching a church program about change and how the =20 church needs to keep up with the times (while not changing biblical principles) and =20= one thing the pastor stated was that a study was showing that people aren't reading as much as they used to in part because they read online, or =20 watch videos (youtube). So in the near future I think a lot of mags will be available in a digital format. I like to read and in fact I read =20 everyday and night (i study constantly) and I like reading from traditional means =20 as well as digital formats; but I have to admit, I prefer the digital format. I recently took over 100 books to class with me and the weight of them =20 didn't bother me one bit- because they were all on 1 CD...lol Jye --- On Mon, 1/12/09, aburrese@aol.com wrote: I just received an e-mail that JAMA will no longer be sold in stores. =20= You will have to subscribe to get a print version and it looks like there will =20= be an on-line version as well. I have a review coming out in the next issue, and I think that is why =20= I am on the e-mail list. Alain www.burrese.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: = http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:17:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Sparring To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net SAY WHAT!?!?!?!?! Now that is something shocking to me. a TKD school =20 that doesn't spar? I wonder if they compete in sparring? One good thing =20 about TKD and many other KMA schools is the fact that they spar and sparring is =20= a big part of the experience. thanks for sharing that, that is interesting =20 info. Jye --- On Mon, 1/12/09, zisheged@aol.com wrote: From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sparring To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 6:45 AM I know one school (TKD-WTF) in New York that doesn't do any sparring whatever and many others that do it at a minimum. They contend, or at =20= least it's what they tell me, that they have insurance worries. That may be possible but getting a black belt without fighting seems really strange. Poomsae are very important, I've already said enough about fitness, drills =20 etc. make up our art. Finding the correct balance of all things including muk yum, weapons, Korean terminology is difficult but is the realm of the instructor's perogative. CMA is not unique in the respect of sparring =20= free training. It's very important to visit as many schools within reach to =20= make an opinion. I also recommend looking for Kukkiwon certificates =20 posted.? Last, I don't recommend cross training until one attains ChoDan. Zeishe _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:12:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Master To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For me the issue is not the title master, but I would never call =20 anyone my master. You may be super dope funky great master of XYZ art but I'll =20 refer to you as my teacher, instructor but I wouldn't say this is so and so and =20= he is my master. I wouldn't let anyone call me THEIR master either. Jye --- On Mon, 1/12/09, Kevin Janisse wrote: From: Kevin Janisse Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 11:09 AM Hello Master Gordon, "Novice Seminars - Come Spread the Ignorance." That's great! I would not of expected anything less from you...lol A title like that would certainly bring in the wrong crowd. Over the years of training and teaching I have run across many martial artists that would comment on the title of master in regard to "they are not my master" yet when they reached a "master" level they had no issue with the title. Another thing I have noticed is that the honorary title of =20 master seems to be used by fellow masters as a token of respect and =20 acknowledgment. The use of titles can be twisted and warped to fit anyone's agenda and changed just the same (look at are new government). As noted in the other =20 posts, a true master is one who can serve in a mastering way. He/She has =20 mastered (we hope) the ability to share/teach to others to teach what they have =20 learned in a clear and concise manner. This is similar to a school master who =20 helps other teachers and runs the school. I hope that I and fellow masters =20= can show this in a unselfish and pride-less manner so future teachers/masters =20 will have the right idea and attitude. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Curt McCauley" To: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:41:25 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] "Master" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello again, Why not use the term Sa Bom (Nim?) defined as teacher of the pattern, =20= rules or laws, and model (a model teacher, or a model for teachers). I have =20 also read somewhere that Sa Bom means "Teacher of Teachers This meaning is way =20= more specific than "Master" although "Master instructor" seems to cover =20 everything nicely. However "master" is not a korean term, it is an English term. =20= There is a Hanja term "Chu" Which is defined as "Lord, Master, ruler, =20 chief, or principal, but I don't think that would apply here. In any case, in my experience the term "Master" in the martial arts is =20= used most often as an honorific for a person of much experience as a =20 practitoner, student and teacher. I know of very few who use this term to describe themselves. Respectfully submitted, Curt McCauley Chief Instructor Channel Town Soo Bahk Do --__--__-- Message: 13 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Master Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:15:59 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To GrandMaster Timmerman....great post sir...I enjoyed reading the =20 truth as you see it...and as I also agree with everything you wrote...hooyah. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009= --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest