Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:59:00 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #21 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Thomas Gordon) 2. RE: apologies (Thomas Gordon) 3. RE: Visiting Korea (J R Hilland) 4. Re: Old Videos (Dakin Burdick) 5. Re: Visiting Korea (Dakin Burdick) 6. Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Beth Hicks) 7. Is your hand game on point? (Jye nigma) 8. Korea & Hapkido (jason white) 9. Re: Quality TKD Video (Beth Hicks) 10. Re: Source of real martial arts training (zisheged@aol.com) 11. Re: Re: Old Videos (daomyer@aol.com) 12. Mr. Gordon= no harm no foul (Ken McDonough) 13. Re: Quality TKD Video (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:33:07 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ms Tomlinson, I did enjoy Korea and did stop to see Kukkiwon. I really enjoyed the trip and seeing the sites. Enjoyed the seminar in Grand Master Seo's school and seeing the Hapkido tournament in Pusan. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] apologies Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:32:50 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Heck, not hard to get a hornet's nest going when dealing with a bunch of martial artists. Seems to have stayed pretty civil. No blood and no one lost an eye.... :) Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:47:27 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Visiting Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I would rather be on the beach in the Caribbean's. It is 100 degrees warmer inside the house (-30F outside without the wind-chill). We left the dojang after class tonight and went to go eat at a nearby restaurant. As we walked out of the strip center there was a child, a young girl of teen years, high school or college age who was standing outside on the mall sidewalk wearing a hooded sweatshirt, shorts and flip flops. It is now -30 (and expected to get colder tonight) but this was earlier in the evening when it was only around -21. However, the wind-chill had already passed the -50 mark. <<>> I cannot find any current information on him. It is possible that Kim Jung Soo is the only one left still practicing senior to Ji. I don't know the others besides 1-10. Perhaps someone else on this board will enlighten us. I did find some interesting WebPages during my search. First concerning the most senior KHF members in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Hapkido_Association showed correctly that our own Master Holcombe Thomas and Master Hal Whalen are the senior KHF hapkidoin in the USA. I was also pleased to see that http://www.koreahapkidofederation.net showed these 2 gentlemen, in 3 out of the 5 pictures at the top with the two of Master Thomas taken in Jackson (as I recognize the hotel). Is that Jack upside down in the first photo? On the sinmoo hapkido webpage at http://www.sinmoohapkido.be/Hapkido%20Family%20Tree.htm I found an older outdated version of the old hapkido family tree taken before hapkido-info took theirs away (thanks to the fellow in Florida, not currently on this board). It does show GM West and me (with outdated ranks) under Dr. Kimm in the non-sinmoo side as well as GM Kim Jung Soo at the far right. Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com 30th International Hapkido & KMA Clinic March 13, 14 and 15, 2009 www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 05:33:14 -0800 (PST) From: Dakin Burdick To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Old Videos Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mel wrote: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3-STuMbVE&feature=related This is from back when Olympic TKD was more than bouncing, when the IR's wore canary, when they used quality technique, timing and skill instead of negative match management." Mel, what are you talking about? That clip was of Olympic tkd with people bouncing and falling down as they kicked.  I hope that was not actually what people think of as "old school" now. Here's some even older stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgl_Norl11o "Getting your kicks is lesson two!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XcjefT_9-U&feature=related Reyes Kajukenbo - some dedicated training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_e-QmZ7Jc Traditional taekwondo, I mean tangsudo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKenJMjHsVc&feature=relatedand of course, Hai Karate! Taekwon, Dakin --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:59:02 -0800 (PST) From: Dakin Burdick To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Visiting Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere - nice post on visiting Korea.  That's exactly how I felt when I was doing my iaido training in Japan. We got train with some very dedicated practitioners, none of whom did the same form the same as each other, but all of whom had specific specialities that we could pick up. We visited the grave of the founder (Hoki-ryu) in Iwakuni, which was very important to me, as I was grateful for what he had taught and left us. There weren't any caretakers around at the cemetery, so we spent a couple of hours wandering through an enormous cemetery that filled up a couple of valleys, but that was memorable too. I got to see the ZNIR and the ZNKR annual competitions and see 7th-9th dans do their thing.  We walked through a lot of castles. We spent hours at a used book festival looking for prints and books. But the best moment of all was the time spent in a moss garden in a monastery on the northeast side of Kyoto, the most peaceful place I have ever visited.  Lovely! I haven't been to Korea yet, but I would love to.  Love the culture. Training with one of the old hapkiyusul masters would be great.  But the Kukkiwon Sandra? I did tkd for twenty+ years, and that was more than enough. I learned some things from it, but ultimately it is not what my body needed or wanted. And the Kukkiwon made it even less so.  I'm interested in how people fight, not in competitions, and I imagine others feel the same. I can't remember who mentioned quanfa, but bravo. Each nation has changed the art. The original Chinese versions of our forms were fast, open-handed, and high stanced. The Okinawans made them into punches and dropped the stances a bit to train on strength. The Japanese dropped the stances even further for physical education, and added high kicks as martial arts professionalized in the 1950s (and perhaps because of the influence of Korean t'aekkyeon). And then the Koreans dropped a lot of the punches and hand techniques and concentrated on high kicking and spin kicking. It looks a hell of a lot different now than when it was at "the source." It's not the same art at all. So, if the Koreans felt it was ok to change the art, and the Japanese felt the same, and the Okinawans felt the same, maybe it is ok if we pursue our own direction as well?  Just tired of the old "TKD is 2000 years old" story (<- this shows how old I am, it's 5,000 years now, right?). LOL! Dakin Burdick --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:14:28 +0900 From: "Beth Hicks" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeju Do is GORGEOUS!! ps, hapkido rocks. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Thomas Gordon < tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com> wrote: > Ms Tomlinson, > > I did enjoy Korea and did stop to see Kukkiwon. I really enjoyed the trip > and seeing the sites. Enjoyed the seminar in Grand Master Seo's school and > seeing the Hapkido tournament in Pusan. > > Sincerely, > > Thomas Gordon > Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 > www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:05:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Is your hand game on point? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net look at this clip and THEN answer the question...lol.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6zlaIl0yh0   Jye --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 23:51:49 -0800 (PST) From: jason white To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Korea & Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think traveling to Korea is essential at some point in your training. To truely understand the culture & where it all came from, there 's no better place! This year will be my third year, I'm taking several students this time. We train under GM Hyun Soo Lim, one of only three 9th Dans given by Choi, Yong Sool. Last time I was there we went to see Choi grave site. That was something I've wanted to do for years. It usually cost around $2500 round trip, food, hotel, alot of taxi's, etc. Jason White Iron Dragon Martial Arts www.WarriorVideos.Net TaekwonHapki@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:09:29 +0900 From: "Beth Hicks" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net so far, in reading these emails i have heard some negative remarks about the taekwondo kukkikwan in korea...(i'm a hapkidoin, i am just trying to be on the side of koreans, since no one else seems to be) in this video... almost ever "winning" MA'st is korean... funny... if koreans don't tkae the sport seriously, why are the koreans almost always in the semi final or final for olympic taekwondo and judo...did the amerians make it (i am serisouly curious, i just dont remember) i have also heard (not in this mailing list, but from an american.... that has never stepped foot in korea) that koreans give black belts out like candy... which is SO not true, i worked my ass off for my black belt. how about giving the koreans... the creators of many of the most popular and EFFECTIVE martial arts on the planet....some slack... i'm a little surprised by some of the comments i have seen around these emails...i thought martial ats were about respect... for EVERYONE... maybe i'm wrong. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Jye nigma wrote: > I don't like headgear either. The ear holes seem to amplify the surrounding > sound which throws me off a bit, especially in a large gymnasium where the > sound echoes. > > Jye > > --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Ray wrote: > > From: Ray > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 8:33 PM > > Excellent stuff! Even goes back to before headgear, which I prefer (and > have > the brain damage to prove it). > > Ray > > > > > Came across this on youtube: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y3-STuMbVE&feature=related > > > > This is from back when Olympic TKD was more than bouncing, when the > IR's wore canary, when they used quality technique, timing and skill > instead > of negative match management. > > > > Take care, > > Mel > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers applySubscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:53:35 -0500 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Source of real martial arts training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, ?????? You are sooooo right!? Martial arts training does not come from a place it comes from a master. I was so fortunate to have trained with Dr. Richard Chun shortly after he came to America. He was a 3rd dan then back in 1963. He is now a 9th dan and internationally reknown. I learned MooDukKwan and later taekwondo from him. No armour full contact. It was brutal. Training excrutiating but I loved it. I still have the first dobak I ever owned and never washed out the blood stains fortunately. He was MY source. Everyone should be so lucky to have a master they respected and who demanded more than we thought we could give. Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Old Videos Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:37:55 -0500 From: daomyer@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgl_Norl11o My two favorites: "Elementary wood chopping" And Egypt in the 60s... All Western clothes and woman parachuting. Time marches forward...er...backward..er. Dave O. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:37:17 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Gordon= no harm no foul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Gordon:   No harm, no foul. Plus, I've mellowed with age. My only point was that the media and movies often glamorize the real life situation of those serving in the military. There are many stories of good deeds by soldiers, sailors, and airmen, and of course Officers. Then there are those sordid, untold, behind the scene stories of people getting screwed by the system for a variety of reasons. Those latter stories are hardly told.   In any event, to answer your question and Jesse's inquiry on training:   - I started Japanese training in Karate in my teen years (late 60's) when living in the bowels of Ozone Park, New York and got tired of the "wiseguys" kicking my little Irish derriere. I was the son of a sharecropper but there were no cotton fields in Queens, New York. Those Italian kids grew up fast, mean, and big. I was a skinny runt. I took two years of Italian in high school so the guys would leave me alone. John Gotti's Bergen Hunt and Fish Club was several blocks from my two bedroom shanty shack of an apartment where I danced in the streets for nickel and dimes. Like James Brown did back in Augusta, GA. And, I taught James that pivot move. James, Bobby Byrd, and I would often meet at the Apollo when James was on tour in NYC.   - Grew up on Billy Jack and Bruce Lee movies.   - Continued Karate training in New Jersey where I supplemented my interest via a returning GI from Japan who opened a store front Karate studio. This was in the Lodi and Hasbrock Hts (sic), and Paramus, NJ area. Then played high school and college basketball saving me from a life of crime. I had a great jump shot ala Oscar Robertson. But, I was not a good guard, a lousy forward, and could not jump.   - Joined the military when the Navy decided to pay for my graduate studies and studied in the medical field. I then studied, Shorin Ryu Karate, some Aikido (from a well known Chicago judo and karate player who was ahead of his time). Then studied TKD, Kuk Sool Won, Tang Soo Do, and Hapkido in California. Assignments in Pusan and Osan, Korea, and related areas, led to more training. Ended up in Seoul and got hooked on Kimche or was it Kim ? She worked at a juicy bar up in Itawon. I did not mind buying girlie drinks since at that time the Won to US dollar conversion rate was quite good. Learned more about the Koean culture. Made several treks up to Camp Casey and had Hollywood Joe, Korean Tailor, make me cool suits and clothes for a nominal price. He would then meet me at The Hamilton Hotel in Seoul. I would put on the threads and do my tours of late night Itawon. Continued to take treks into the Philippines to visit those beaches and third world bars. Nothing like it fellas ! You can't beat a San Miquel or a Red Horse for the price. Also try the chicken adobo and pancit.     - Went to graduate school and other forms of unlearned education obtaining large quantities of advanced degrees. This included the areas of Wisconsin, Michigan, Washington, DC, and Chicago. Met Barack when he was hustling the streets on the Southside of Chicago. He was just an ordinary hack politician back then.   - Married a Filipina from Cebu. PI. Then trained briefly in Doce Pares and Eskrima. Made several additional excursions into Angeles City and Subic Bay. Note:  Hi to Tessy who worked at the Nippa Hut. That girl with the long black hair was simply amazing...anyway...   - While working at the Pentagon studied under a Doce Pares, Silat, and Muay Thai instructor. Then took up some boxing in Maryland.   Fast forward to the present:   Today: I'm a washed up chump living in a bad part of town and close to the railroad tracks. Like Mickey Rouke in the new Movie "The Wrestler", I need to make a comeback...but I can't get off the bottle.   Ciao for now,   K down in Big Texas   P.S. I have a vivid imagination and often a problem with reality. I leave it to the reader to sort the sense from the nonsense. The Doctors don't know what to prescribe.   --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:58:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Being kind is one thing, and in order to receive respect the individual(s) should be honorable in my opinion. If anyone is walking around teaching lies like TKD is 2000 years old, that's not honorable to me. As far as Koreans in the olympics that means very little considering the type of "fighting" that's done there. You'll see that if many of them (or any other olympic style practitioners) come over to other competitions where punching to the face is allowed, you'd soon see alot of them would get eaten alive. For instance, remember the girl who was an olympic champion on that trash show Final Fu? She got smashed out because once her legs were cut off she had no hands. So I'm with the people on this list who were stating actual facts about TKD history and KKW. WTF is not the source for traditional or even self defense oriented MA. I'll say this, I have my concerns about ITF TKD but if you cut off their practitioner's legs they can use their hands. I've seen WTF TKD stylist step up in full contact competitions outside of what they normally do and all of them with the exception of one got smashed out BADLY!   Now to be fair, I believe WTF TKD people have the goods to be an effective all around fighter, but there is some serious tweaking that needs to be done.   Jye --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Beth Hicks wrote: so far, in reading these emails i have heard some negative remarks about the taekwondo kukkikwan in korea...(i'm a hapkidoin, i am just trying to be on the side of koreans, since no one else seems to be) in this video... almost ever "winning" MA'st is korean... funny... if koreans don't tkae the sport seriously, why are the koreans almost always in the semi final or final for olympic taekwondo and judo...did the amerians make it (i am serisouly curious, i just dont remember) i have also heard (not in this mailing list, but from an american.... that has never stepped foot in korea) that koreans give black belts out like candy... which is SO not true, i worked my ass off for my black belt. how about giving the koreans... the creators of many of the most popular and EFFECTIVE martial arts on the planet....some slack... i'm a little surprised by some of the comments i have seen around these emails...i thought martial ats were about respect... for EVERYONE... maybe i'm wrong. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest