Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:09:18 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #23 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Korea (ehccwmai@mtc.net) 2. RE: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video (Lee Morgan) 3. Re: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video (Lee Morgan) 4. RE: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Rick Clark) 5. Coaches Complete Level 2 Certification (The_Dojang) 6. Old Videos (chunjido@aol.com) 7. US Taekwondo Committee 2009 events (-) 8. TKD school in St. Charles/St. Louis MO? (Jeff Yeagley) 9. RE: Old Videos (michael tomlinson) 10. ITF TKD vs kickboxing clip (Jye nigma) 11. RE: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 12. TKD clips (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ehccwmai@mtc.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:45:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The first time > I saw a paper dan in action was in Wisconsin about 10 years ago at a > hapkido seminar. I was flabbergasted. Now I am used to it, I don't > like it as I worked hard for my rank, but what are we going to do > about it? It is best that we show the 'real art' by example on the mats. Hey Jere, I assume that was at one of my seminar's here in WI. I'm very curious as to who you are referring to. Dave --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:09:28 -0500 Subject: RE: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video From: Lee Morgan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: Now to be fair, I believe WTF TKD people have the goods to be an effective all around fighter, but there is some serious tweaking that needs to be done. Jye Yes, I agree. I'll go further than that. TKD has all the tools needed to be an extremely effective martial style. Found within the movements that make up the forms are wrist locks, arm bars, shoulder dislocations, attack deflections/knock out counters in the same move, etc......plus all the kicks in TKD. The "serious tweaking" you mentioned could be the subjuct of a whole new thread of conversation I'd like to get into. I for one believe part of that serious tweaking should be the whole attitude of training among most TKD schools-----they seem to have almost a day care air about them now. Actually a big subject there, probably bigger than I can write about in one message, but I believe there are many here who know what I mean. Another serious tweak that needs to be made is the attitude of those who are in the extreme upper leadership roles of TKD. Lee Morgan --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:57:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video From: Lee Morgan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Beth, I would like to respectfully reply to your message. I want to try to explain why you may have read some comments that reflect negative on the Kukkiwon. I may not speak for everybody, but I'm sure that I speak for many. There are so many things in your message! Let's take them one by one. You wrote: {{almost ever "winning" MA'st is korean... funny... if koreans don't tkae the sport seriously, why are the koreans almost always in the semi final or final for olympic taekwondo and judo}}. A couple of things about this. 1) Many of us have come through the ranks from the sixty's, seventy's, and even into the eighty's. There were ALOT of "picks" of who won fights. If you were up against a Korean, and there were Korean judges, you had to KO your opponent or hit and kick him so hard that he couldn't answer the next round in order for you to win. That type of favoritism can turn many people off. 2) No one has ever accused (that I'm aware of) the Koreans for not taking the SPORT seriously. What I'm frustrated with is that they market TKD as a MARTIAL ART, but they have taken most of the MARTIAL ART out of TKD and turned it into a sport. If it's a sport, they shouldn't call it a Martial Art. Training for sport can cause you to learn many bad habits that you DON'T want to have in a real self-defense situation. You wrote: {{i have also heard (not in this mailing list, but from an american.... that has never stepped foot in korea) that koreans give black belts out like candy... which is SO not true}}. Well, I've lived and trained in Korea, my wife is Korean, my 5 brother-in-laws are of course Korean (all TKD black belts from between 5th and 8th degree), some of my best friends and training partners are Korean-----and I can tell you that yes, in Korea they do give out black belts like candy. What's more is that I can tell you that they don't seem to understand the true applications of the so called "blocks", or most of the other moves that make up poomse----which came from Karate kata from Japan, which came from ToTe kata from Okinawa, which came from Fukian styles of martial arts like White Crane Boxing, Five Ancestor Boxing, Tiger Fist Boxing, and Monk Fist Boxing among others. You wrote: {{how about giving the koreans... the creators of many of the most popular and EFFECTIVE martial arts on the planet....some slack}}. Which styles are you talking about? TKD didn't originate in Korea any more than the guitar originated in America. The Koreans learned Karate (mostly Shotokan and Shito Ryu-----although Hwang Kee may have studied Quan Fa as well) and began teaching in Korea after the end of the Japanese occupation. Some of the kicks from Tae Kyon were added and more of an emphasis was placed on kicking. Hapkido?? Hapkido is an effective martial art, but look to see who the teacher of the founder of Hapkido was. Where was he from?? Not Korea. Tae Kyon?? Tae Kyon was at one time more of a martial art, but had evolved into a sport long ago. There is nothing wrong with a person or a country taking something and changing it to fit them better, or to fit a population better. Nothing wrong with that at all. What many in the west are frustrated with is the re-writing of history. You wrote: {{i'm a little surprised by some of the comments i have seen around these emails...i thought martial ats were about respect... for EVERYONE... maybe i'm wrong.}} No, your not wrong at all. There IS something very disrespectful about lying to people, which is what is happening when you re-write history. There is something very disrespectful about playing favorites when it comes to race (which, if you have only trained here in America, or in England, you probably wouldn't have seen----but it's blatant in Korea). But, there is nothing disrespectful about pointing out the truth. I haven't read any insults to anyone in these emails, just people pointing out facts. If people are insulted about that, well.....Hmm...I wonder what that says?? Lee Morgan --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:52:56 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Chris, > -----Original Message----- > > > The further away one drinks from the source, the more > > stagnet the > > > water becomes. What I see is a further and further > > from the source. > > > > [Rick] OK - so if I want to get TKD from the source I need > > to go to Japan > > and train in Shotokan, and if I want to go even closer to > > the source I'll go > > to Okinawa and train in the line of Itosu. > > If you're going to go back to Itosu why not continue farther back and > study Chinese Chuan Fa? That way you're even closer to the source since > there is a southern Chinese connection to Okinawan karate. [Rick] Oh I just chose Itosu because he was the one that was supposed to have developed the Pinan/Heian (Pyung-ahn Korean) forms that were practiced in the first Kwans, Chung Do Kwan being the one I practiced. But you are absolutely right, and if you go back far enough we might even head off to India, or even Egypt. But, I simply made a choice because of the forms. The idea that the Kukkiwon is the "source" is a bit naïve to me, and I have to admit my post was probably not my most politically correct one I have made...... > > Pax, > > Chris Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:55:55 -0800 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Coaches Complete Level 2 Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Coaches Complete Level 2 Certification USA Taekwondo January 15, 2009 Three days before the start of the 2009 U.S. National Team Qualifier, coaches from all over the country arrived on the campus of the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, Colorado, to participate in the first Level 2 seminar offered by USA Taekwondo. The Level 2 seminar is a component of the Coach Identification and Development Program (CIDP) designed to increase or refine the knowledge and skills of coaches within the USAT coaching pipeline. Twenty coaches from 10 different states, including Alaska, took part in this inaugural event. The diversity of the coaching group was not solely based on location, but on time as well. Coaches with various levels of experience and backgrounds were in attendance, including some who have seen the growth and change that has taken place with the sport and its programs in the United States over the span of several decades. For instance, Coach Oren Gautreaux from Blue Springs, Missouri, who began Taekwondo training in 1973 and won his first national championship in 1976, stated that the Level 2 seminar "was a great event in which I learned many things which will directly benefit my competitors. I have had great exposure to outstanding coaches and team members. I have seen many positive changes since those early days and see the coaching certification program as one of the very best. I truly believe this (CIDP Level 2 seminar) will give the U.S. the edge to develop more and better athletes in the future. It is easy to see the commitment and hard work in developing this program. I challenge all coaches in the U.S. to participate in the next '09 seminar. Thank you!" The CIDP Level 2 seminar is a comprehensive, competency-based program that took place over the course of two days and covered various aspects related to coaching Olympic-style Taekwondo. After going though an extensive peer-based assessment of coaching competencies, all of the participants earned their Level 2 certifications. Coach Stephen Dring from the Remarck Sport Taekwondo Team had the following to say about the seminar: "I was very pleased with the content and delivery of the CIDP Level 2 Seminar. Coaches Lopez and Moreno were extremely open and candid in sharing their experiences and knowledge with the attendees. Clearly, they are committed to assisting all of the USAT coaches that choose to avail themselves to this valuable resource. I consider my investment in this seminar money well spent. Thanks!" USA Taekwondo is proud to announce the first group of Level 2 coaches of the CIDP: 1. David Bartlett - Colorado Springs, Colorado 2. Fernando Brown - Anchorage, Alaska 3. Tatiana Brown - Anchorage, Alaska 4. Linda Buell - Oakland, California 5. Stephen Dring - Potomac, Maryland 6. Francis Esposo - Bakersfield, California 7. Oren Gautreaux - Blue Springs, Missouri 8. Marc Gitelman - Las Vegas, Nevada 9. John Hasenpflug - Festus, Missouri 10. Dennis Kim - Gainsville, Virginia 11. Jimmy Kim - Laguna Nigel, California 12. Peter Marquez - Sylmar, California 13. Woosop Moore - Fenton, Missouri 14. Patrice Remarck - Alexandria, Virginia 15. Luis Reyes - Chatsworth, California 16. Daniel Rogers - Seaside, California 17. Michael Tang - Haver Hill, Massachusetts 18. Charles Thornton - Bethesda, Maryland 19. James White - Durham, North Carolina 20. Dan Williams - Livingston, Montana Congratulations to the coaches above and USA Taekwondo looks forward to having more coaches join this distinguished group! --__--__-- Message: 6 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:01:45 -0500 From: chunjido@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Old Videos Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mel, what are you talking about? That clip was of Olympic tkd with people bouncing and falling down as they kicked.? I hope that was not actually what people think of as "old school" now. ----------------------------------------- Hi Dakin, No, not the greatest TKD in there, or really old school, but better than the Olympics. Mostly, I've just been disgusted lately with Olympic TKD. I'm all fuss. I really don't know how to make it better except to teach my students to be humble and fight a quality match. All the bouncing, falling down, avoidance and negative match management are frustrating to me and shows IMHO (FWIW) a true decline in Olympic TKD. I'm not as good as Jye at finding the diamond in the rough clips on youtube, but here's another one I liked: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z20jLQ73PhQ Although there is some falling down in that one too, Still some good technique mixed in. Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com 1-877-847-4072 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:05:26 -0800 From: - To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] US Taekwondo Committee 2009 events Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net US Taekwondo Committee events; March 6th-7th 2009* * *KAMA Meeting Las Vegas, NV* www.kamablackbelt.com April 17th-19th 2009 *International Referee Seminar Chicago, IL* June 19th-21st 2009 *U.S. National Taekwondo Hanmadang Chicago, Il* ** ** ** August 2009 *World Taekwondo Hanmadang Seoul, Korea* ** --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:13:58 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD school in St. Charles/St. Louis MO? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a student who has relocated and is looking for a good traditional school in the St. Charles or St. Louis area. Any ideas? Thank you, Jeff Yeagley Academy of Fighting Arts BUSINESS PHONE: 816-525-5555 WEB: http://www.WeTrainHarder.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Old Videos Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 14:30:50 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I didn't want to comment on this after watching it but that is also what I saw...lots of jumping with the hands at the side....most of the knock outs came because no one had their hands up to protect their heads...one bad thing about being all padded up is that it gives you a sense of security that you won't have outside of being all padded up..by not having a ton of pads on your mind starts thinking more about defense and injury and you will learn to cover up more when you move... Michael Tomlinson > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:01:45 -0500> From: chunjido@aol.com> Subject: [The_Dojang] Old Videos> > Mel, what are you talking about? That clip was of Olympic tkd with people> > bouncing and falling down as they kicked.? I hope that was not actually what> > people think of as "old school" now.> _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:16:09 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF TKD vs kickboxing clip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXPe9F3V3C0&feature=PlayList&p=A4B7080148FC8F21&playnext=1&index=16 --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:53:42 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From my stand point if one wants to get close to the source they could do a lot worse than to go LEGACY written by General Choi. TKD is TKD. Of course is had influences from shotokan. By it also had influences from Korea too. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 16 January 2009 02:53 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Hi Chris, > -----Original Message----- > > > The further away one drinks from the source, the more > > stagnet the > > > water becomes. What I see is a further and further > > from the source. > > > > [Rick] OK - so if I want to get TKD from the source I need > > to go to Japan > > and train in Shotokan, and if I want to go even closer to > > the source I'll go > > to Okinawa and train in the line of Itosu. > > If you're going to go back to Itosu why not continue farther back and > study Chinese Chuan Fa? That way you're even closer to the source since > there is a southern Chinese connection to Okinawan karate. [Rick] Oh I just chose Itosu because he was the one that was supposed to have developed the Pinan/Heian (Pyung-ahn Korean) forms that were practiced in the first Kwans, Chung Do Kwan being the one I practiced. But you are absolutely right, and if you go back far enough we might even head off to India, or even Egypt. But, I simply made a choice because of the forms. The idea that the Kukkiwon is the "source" is a bit naïve to me, and I have to admit my post was probably not my most politically correct one I have made...... > > Pax, > > Chris Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. 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You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:30:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD clips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WTF-ITF TKD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOFF9qjmnXI&feature=related   seminar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsgUSda4Sxk&feature=related     --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest