Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:58:05 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #24 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Korea / GM Lim (jason white) 2. RE: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video (Jye nigma) 3. Re: kkw / wtf / fighting with the hands (Jye nigma) 4. Generalizations (Dakin Burdick) 5. US National Team Qualifier Concludes in Colorado Springs (The_Dojang) 6. Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Christopher Spiller) 7. Re: Korea (J R Hilland) 8. (no subject) (jeff kiral) 9. RE: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (daomyer@aol.com) 11. Re: Korea / GM Lim (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:27:12 -0800 (PST) From: jason white To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Korea / GM Lim Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM Lim is one of only three actual 9th dan directly under Choi. Ji Han Jae will tell you the same, they know each other. When Choi stoped teaching in 1978 he personaly joined the Jungkikwan until his death in 1986. I have personally seen the 9th dan certificate signed by Choi. Also, GM Lim has several students that were given 3rd/4th dan ranks by Choi while he was there. I have videos of them training at the Jungkikwan, not seminars, just regualar class. They are playing go when class is over. I posted this stuff on youtube. My name there is idma. I also posted a video of Choi telling is history during an interview. More proof, GM Lim has alot of Choi old student rosters. One of the other 9th dans is the head of the Yong Sool Kwan, the other does not teach. Forgive me for not knowing there names. I have trained under alot of Hapkido organization, from GM West's USKMAF, to AW Choi's Intercontinental HKD Fed., all great masters. I have never been so impressed by one man. No flashy stuff, no high kicks, just, as he says, pure traditional Choi, Yong Sool Hapkido. My best friend is a 3rd dan in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, he said the stuff we do is almost identical to his aiki. The main differance is the order & some of the attacks. This is the best I could do to respond, there are people that could give you a much clearer anwser, Chris LaCava, Micheal D'Aloia, Kevin Sogar, or GM Lim himself.   Thank you for your curiosity, Jason White Iron Dragon Martial Arts taekwonhapki@yahoo.com www.WarriorVideos.Net We all take differant paths to th top of the mountain, but we all arrive at the same place!!! --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:52:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: Re: [The_Dojang] Quality TKD Video To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In regards to TKD we have alot of work ahead of us to get it on track. When looking in the general's encyclopedia you'll find many hand weapons that aren't even used in the art. So the focus will have to be on resurrecting the lost usages of the art's weapons.   Jye   --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Lee Morgan wrote: Yes, I agree.  I'll go further than that.  TKD has all the tools needed to be an extremely effective martial style.  Found within the movements that make up the forms are wrist locks, arm bars, shoulder dislocations, attack deflections/knock out counters in the same move, etc......plus all the kicks in TKD.  The "serious tweaking" you mentioned could be the subjuct of a whole new thread of conversation I'd like to get into.  I for one believe part of that serious tweaking should be the whole attitude of training among most TKD schools-----they seem to have almost a day care air about them now.  Actually a big subject there, probably bigger than I can write about in one message, but I believe there are many here who know what I mean. Another serious tweak that needs to be made is the attitude of those who are in the extreme upper leadership roles of TKD. Lee Morgan --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:08:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] kkw / wtf / fighting with the hands To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Naturally all WTF schools aren't the same, and most likely don't train the same, but when compared as a whole to ITF one can clearly see that more ITF schools use hands quite a bit. This is evident in sparring as well as competition. A basic youtube viewing of WTF TKD and ITF TKD will provide overwhelming evidence of this. But yes maybe I shouldn't generalize, but the question is am I truly generalizing or am I stating what I've experienced?   Jye --- On Thu, 1/15/09, David Weller wrote: OK, I gotta chime in here. Just because a dojang is KKW or WTF affiliated does NOT mean their students can't use their hands. My teacher has some of the fastest hands I've ever seen. When you spar with him, you _better_ have your hands up and you _better_ be watching out for the ol' bread basket because he can generally hit you at will. And a vast majority of the pain he inflicts is with his hands, not his feet. Not that he can't kick, but like he says sometimes, "I have hands too." Sure, when we do tournament sparring we don't hit to the head with our hands (it's against the rules), but I can personally guarantee that every student who learns from my teacher, or from me, is going to keep their hands up in ANY match, regardless of the style. And amazingly we don't do too shabbily against the armless wonders that typify our sport. I'd rather have a student who can make it out of a bar fight alive than one who has a room full of trophies that mean nothing and some big galoot (like Ken's Italian pals) knocks them cold in the first ten seconds of a "real" fight. It's the teacher, not the flag on the wall, that makes the martial artist. Generalizations tend to miss the target. A good back fist probably won't. dave weller --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 06:46:10 -0800 (PST) From: Dakin Burdick To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Generalizations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dave Weller wrote: >It's the teacher, not the flag on the wall, that makes the martial artist.Well, I'd say it was the teacher, the student and the art.  Not trying to be pedantic Dave, but the art does play a role. We do what we practice, even if our conscious mind knows a lot better. >Generalizations tend to miss the target. A good back fist probably won't. Generalizations actually are applicable to the arts. We train to develop good instincts, so our bodies do what we want them to do under certain conditions. If we find ourselves in a situation for which we have not specifically trained, we tend to generalize, which is a good thing because we can then make decisions quickly.  Those decisions may be wrong, but it is better than sitting there second guessing oneself. Like the law always says, "what would a reasonable person do?" Here's the thing. Dave, sounds like you have a good dojang.  Cool.  Glad to hear it. Truly. But please understand that the art does define you. It defines you to your students and to the world outside. You can be more complex than the definition of the art (and should be!) but saying "I practice taekwondo" ultimately tells us a lot about what you do, right?  I still call what I do hapkido, but I'd love to find a category that actually fits me. It might make it easier to find training partners. I know what it is like to defend tkd -- I did it myself for a LOOOOONGGGG time. Ultimately, I realized it wasn't what I needed, it had caused long-term knee problems for my students (we did air kicking back then. duh.), and the international leadership was doing nothing for me. So now I don't defend it. And I'm  happier. Still searching, Dakin Burdick Okemos, Michigan --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:23:14 -0800 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] US National Team Qualifier Concludes in Colorado Springs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net National Team Qualifier Concludes in Colorado Springs Bill Kellick USA Taekwondo January 11, 2009 The final 32 athletes qualified for the National Team Trials during Sunday's final day of the 2009 National Team Qualifier at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs. The 32 athletes, along with 32 who qualified on Saturday, will advance to fight at the National Team Trials in Austin, Texas, on April 24. Sunday's qualifiers were: MALE FINWEIGHT QUALIFIERS 1. Manuel Reyes (Chatsworth, Calif.) 2. Johnny Nguyen (Chandler, Ariz.) 3. Jon-Marc Cortez (Seattle, Wash.) 3. Daniel Elkowitz (Richmond, Texas) MALE FLYWEIGHT QUALIFIERS 1. James Howe (San Ramon, Calif.) 2. Jorge Mejia (Littleton, Colo.) 3. Jamie Lee Toyota (Colorado Springs, Colo.) 3. Christian Valencia (Renton, Wash.) MALE BANTAMWEIGHT QUALIFIERS 1. Aldo Rodriguez (Las Vegas, Nev.) 2. Mario Harris (Henderson, Nev.) 3. Bernard Posey (Greensboro, N.C.) 3. Pano Giannakopoulos (Stafford, Texas) MALE FEATHERWEIGHT QUALIFIERS 1. Steven Lin (Chatham, N.J.) 2. Tal Moriah (Houston, Texas) 3. Chris Martinez (Houston, Texas) 3. Jonathan Scherquist (Stevensburg, Va.) FEMALE LIGHTWEIGHT QUALIFIERS 1. Jade Lopez (Union City, Calif.) 2. Cornelia Torres (Inverness, Ill.) 3. Kristina Bowen (Vancouver, Wash.) 3. Chelsea Keiser (Wapakoneta, Ohio) FEMALE WELTERWEIGHT QUALIFIERS 1. Paige McPherson (Sturgis, S.D.) 2. Sanaz Shahbazi (Sacramento, Calif.) 3. Kayla Caracciolo-Clayton (Orlando, Fla.) 3. Amie Szymanski (Miami, Fla.) FEMALE MIDDLEWEIGHT QUALIFIERS 1. Christina Park (New York, N.Y.) 2. Brandi Powers (Nottingham, Md.) 3. Amy Maillet (Orange, Mass.) 3. La Shondra Rawls (Clinton, Md.) FEMALE HEAVYWEIGHT QUALIFIERS 1. Lauren Cahoon (Miami, Fla.) 2. Amanda Nissen (Carrollton, Texas) 3. Adrienne Ivey (Ashburn, Va.) 3. Maia Eubanks (Indianapolis, Ind.) The 16 winners in Austin will comprise the 2009 U.S. National Team that will compete at the World Championships in Copenhagen, Denmark, October 14-18. Qualifying on Saturday were: FEMALE FINWEIGHT 1. Alexis Martinez (Pembroke Pines, Fla.) 2. Talina Le (Woodinville, Wash.) 3. Kelsey Kitagawa (San Mateo, Calif.) 3. Kiana Lo (Danville, Calif.) FEMALE FLYWEIGHT 1. Kelly Chu (Plano, Texas) 2. Christina Johnson (Egg Harbor City, N.J.) 3. Victoria Stambaugh (Pasadena, Texas) 3. Danielle Pelham (Bothell, Wash.) FEMALE BANTAMWEIGHT 1. Danielle Holmquist (Coral Springs, Fla.) 2. Emilia Morrow (Alexandria, Va.) 3. Mara Perscheid (Alexandria, Va.) 3. Kira Cramer (Laguna Niguel, Calif.) FEMALE FEATHERWEIGHT 1. Stephanie Beckel (Miami, Fla.) 2. Katie Sievers (Brooklyn Park, Minn.) 3. Kasey Mallard (Dallas, Texas) 3. Tasha Pruter (Blue Springs, Mo.) MALE LIGHTWEIGHT 1. Vladimir Sokolov (Las Vegas, Nev.) 2. Tyler Knittel-McDavid (Loveland, Ohio) 3. Manuel Suarez (Miami, Fla.) 3. Anthony Bell (Rockville, Md.) MALE WELTERWEIGHT 1. Jason Neville (Edmond, Okla.) 2. Rudford Hamon (Miami, Fla.) 3. Jonathan Fennell (Savannah, Ga.) 3. Luke Ford (Coconut Grove, Fla.) MALE MIDDLEWEIGHT 1. Salar Faiazi (Oklahoma City, Okla.) 2. Dennis Rudasill (Fayetteville, Ark.) 3. Daniel Cosmillo (Palm Coast, Fla.) 3. Jayson Grant (Worcester, Mass.) MALE HEAVYWEIGHT 1. Christian Suh (Astoria, N.Y.) 2. Jonathan Lee (Jackson, N.J.) 3. T.J. Leising (Albuquerque, N.M.) 3. Stephen LaMontagna (Massapequa, N.Y.) --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:02:02 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick Clark said: > > If you're going to go back to Itosu why not > continue farther back and > > study Chinese Chuan Fa? That way you're even > closer to the source since > > there is a southern Chinese connection to Okinawan > karate. > [Rick] Oh I just chose Itosu because he was the one that > was supposed to > have developed the Pinan/Heian (Pyung-ahn Korean) forms > that were practiced > in the first Kwans, Chung Do Kwan being the one I > practiced. That's a fine reason to stop where you did. In fact, you're one of the few people I have heard who has actually given a reason for heir thinking on the subject (at least that I can recall). I have just heard many, many, many people when debating the old saw of the "evolution of Taekwon-Do" talk about the "roots of Taekwon-Do" being Shotokan and then drop it as if Shotokan sprung fully formed from the brow of Funakoshi. > But you are absolutely right, and if you go back far enough > we might even > head off to India, or even Egypt. Sure if you can legitimately trace back where your art came from. And I don't mean the old Bodhidarma legend, I mean doing good historical research. IMHO, this just seems to be close to impossible given the current state of historical records on martial arts. You could go from the Kwans to Shotokan/Shudokan/Chuan Fa since there's ample histoical records for that. You can go back to Okinawa since you've got the Funakoshi connection. It's theoretically even possible to figure out the style of Chinese martial arts that Byung In-Yoon studied. I'm not so sure about Hwang Kee's Chinese connection as I am largely unfamiliar with that Kwan line and will let someone else comment if they want. But beyond these steps? Maybe. *Maybe*. And that's being generous. Do that many Okinawan stylists have a good grasp of the lineage of their art? I mean the indigenous art of Te *and* the Southern Chinese Kung-Fu style(s) that it was combined with? There's historical work being done in this area, I believe, but has it reached anything approaching university level historical research? I doubt it. But yuo have to start somewhere, I admit. Given *this* state of things I think it's going to take a good amount of time to untangle the knot of Korean martial art history. In my opinion, I have no problem saying that the roots of Taekwon-Do are the Kwans. The founders brought back what they knew, trained a new generation of students, and began modifying their style. (I'd call Shotokan/Shudokan maybe not the root but a major influence. Chuan Fa? Minor influence. Perhaps secondary influence would be better?) At some point it stopped being Kong Soo Do and became a more "Korean" art. At which point? That's a matter for debate, IMO. Well, that's my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth in today's economy. But, I simply made a > choice because of > the forms. The idea that the Kukkiwon is the > "source" is a bit naïve to > me, Indeed, to me, as well. But if that's what a student has ben taught it's hard to fault them too much. It just goes to the original point some people were making: the deletion of the Kwan founders from the official Kukkiwon history of Taekwon-Do is not good. and I have to admit my post was probably not my most > politically correct > one I have made...... Which is one of the reasons why I liked it! Let's not confuse political correctness with respect, or even courtesy. All too often it's a muzzle on discourse. Pax, Chris --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:35:50 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> HI Dave! Hope all is well in WI, Yes, you are correct, but I don't know who they were or what group they were with, I don't even think they were from WI. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:55:14 -0800 (PST) From: jeff kiral To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If there is any one in the Cleveland, OH area looking for a place to train in HKD or even TKD, please contact me directly. My cell and email are below. Only serious and dedicated persons need apply. We have a good facility and an excellent instructor. You will not regret your decision. No contracts, very affordable. Thanks. Best Regards, Jeff Kiral Applications Engineer Pacific Fuel Cell jeff.liralpfce@att.net cell: (440)856-5879     --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:17:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net well in all honesty, if someone wants to learn the martial usage of many TKD techniques or hand weapons they better go to shotokan to see how they use it. The single finger, double finger, bear claw, etc are all in the general's book, but I haven't seen in many TKD schools, with the exception of mine (and that was only for the single finger hand weapon) teachers teaching these things and how to use them. Fortunate for me many of the hand weapons are in other MA I studied and therefore have a good understanding of how they can be used; but I feel for the newbies with no prior MA training.   Jye --- On Fri, 1/16/09, PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk wrote: From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 3:53 AM >From my stand point if one wants to get close to the source they could do a lot worse than to go LEGACY written by General Choi. TKD is TKD. Of course is had influences from shotokan. By it also had influences from Korea too. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: 16 January 2009 02:53 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Hi Chris, > -----Original Message----- > > > The further away one drinks from the source, the more > > stagnet the > > > water becomes. What I see is a further and further > > from the source. > > > > [Rick] OK - so if I want to get TKD from the source I need > > to go to Japan > > and train in Shotokan, and if I want to go even closer to > > the source I'll go > > to Okinawa and train in the line of Itosu. > > If you're going to go back to Itosu why not continue farther back and > study Chinese Chuan Fa? That way you're even closer to the source since > there is a southern Chinese connection to Okinawan karate. [Rick] Oh I just chose Itosu because he was the one that was supposed to have developed the Pinan/Heian (Pyung-ahn Korean) forms that were practiced in the first Kwans, Chung Do Kwan being the one I practiced. But you are absolutely right, and if you go back far enough we might even head off to India, or even Egypt. But, I simply made a choice because of the forms. The idea that the Kukkiwon is the "source" is a bit naïve to me, and I have to admit my post was probably not my most politically correct one I have made...... > > Pax, > > Chris Rick Clark _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net **************************************************************************** LONDON FIRE BRIGADE For fire Safety advice please go to http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/YourSafety.asp This email intended solely for the addressee and is confidential. If you receive this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. If you are not the addressee please note that any distribution, copying or use of the information in this email may be unlawful. Email transmissions cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error free as information can be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message that arise as a result of email transmission, including any damage which you may sustain as a result of software viruses. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening emails or their attachments. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 14:28:04 -0500 From: daomyer@aol.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye The single and double finger techniques fell out of fashion after the infamous Curly blocks were developed. The standar straight hand in front of nose Nyuck, Nyuck and the palm slap wooop, wooop woop. Dave O. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Korea / GM Lim Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:45:21 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Didn't GM Lim only start in Hapkido/Hapkiyusul in 1965? And he was a 9th Dan by 1986 (Choi's death) or before??? Ray On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:27 PM, jason white wrote: > When Choi stoped teaching in > 1978 he personaly joined the Jungkikwan until his death in 1986. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest