Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:12:02 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #26 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: kkw fighting generalization (Jye nigma) 2. finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Robert Martin) 3. Doju Choi 9th dans (Chris LaCava) 4. Re: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Lee Morgan) 5. Puerto Rico (Rick Clark) 6. RE: finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Rick Clark) 7. Re: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Lee Morgan) 8. RE: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Rick Clark) 9. Re: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Ray) 10. Re: finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Jye nigma) 11. RE: finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:39:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] kkw fighting generalization To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes this is true, the world thinks olympic sparring when they think of TKD unless they've been exposed to other versions of TKD that spar differently. For instance, if I say basketball, most people will think of a pro team, some may think of a college team, but how many would think about basketball on the street level? Unless you've been exposed to it it won't cross your mind.   Let's face it, the olympic style of TKD the way they spar and or rules to which they must follow for competition is terrible and not a good reflection of a solid martial sport. The only thing that would make that type of fighting interesting is if you tied their arms down to their side and allowed head-butting...lol. One thing about the NHB competitors is they use their training. I know in WTF TKD punching is trained but between the dojang and competition it goes out the window. I'm forward to the day when someone with hand skills as well as an overall good fight game enters into WTF TKD competition; then the sport will be forced to change- the coaches/instructors will be forced to step their team's hand game up.   Jye --- On Sat, 1/17/09, MSKBEvans@aol.com wrote: So perhaps the "world at large" is generalizing TKD based on what they see at the Olympics or at tournaments and not on what actually is taught at most TKD schools? Also I wish these NHB fighters would quit pussy footing around and start allowing the use of knives and guns. Sheesh they are only practicing half the art. ;) Plus a few empty 15 rnd mags in the octagon and you would see what "audience participation" really means. lol **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http ://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:27:00 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, The fingertip(s) have a number of uses in ITF TKD. There are seven different "named" attacking tools: Flat Fingertip (Opun Sonkut) used for chiefly attacking the ribs, eyes and abdomen; Straight fingertip (Sun Sonkut) used tor attacking either the solar plexus and abdomen; Upset Fingertip (Dwijibun Sonkut) used for attacking the pubic region, floating ribs, lower abdomen and the armpit; Angle Fingertip (Homi Sonkut) used for attacking the eyes or solar plexus form the right angle; Thumb (Umji) used to attack the solar plexus, ribs, eyes, windpipe and armpit; Forefinger (Han Songarak) used mainly in attacking he eyes, windpipe and mastoid; and the Double Fingertip (Doo Songarak) used only against the eyes. There are a couple of other techniques that use the forefingers but are not classed with the above. There are also maybe 5 or 6 pages in the condensed Encyclopedia dedicated to these techniques. I'm sorry you instructor wasn't aware of all everything the encyclopedia said on the subject. If I remember correctly you said you own a copy (full one or condensed?). You should take a look. Robert Martin -- __--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:44:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net lol. seriously though, there are applications for both. My instructors actually taught us usage for the single finger hand weapon which was an attack to the corners of the eyes to injure and pop out the opponent's eyes. As far as the double finger in some snake styles that is the fist they make which can be used for striking, seizing etc. it's too bad that real techniques/tactics with these hand weapons wasn't covered in place of useless stuff like "flying in- flying out" material.   Jye -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6206 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Chris LaCava To: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:38:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Doju Choi 9th dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Posted by Ray... "Didn't GM Lim only start in Hapkido/Hapkiyusul in 1965? And he was a 9th Dan by 1986 (Choi's death) or before???"Hey Ray that's correct. By today's standard here in the states, where the average person spends less that 5 hours "a week" training, GM Lim spent 5 hours "a day" training in Hapkido with Doju Choi. So there is a big difference in that old "Time in Grade" issue.I think Jere mentioned that GM Lim was not one of the first students and that is correct as well. There are many Hapkido 9th Dans in the world and those were awarded by GM Ji, Han-jae or other organizations and individual practitioners. On the topic of 9th dans given by Doju Choi, There were only 4 awarded. Only 3 people are still alive today. The other two besides GM Lim are GM Kim, Yun-sang in Geumsan, South Korea and Chang, Chin-il in New York. There was one other who received his 9th dan from Doju Choi and was friends with GM Kim, Yun-sang but unfortunately he passed away.To view GM Lim's 9th dan cert from doju Choi go to...http://lmaa.bravepages.com/photoalbum/limhapki.jpgTo View GM Kim's 9th dan cert from Doju Choi go to...http://www.hapkiyusul.com/new/doju3_1.htmWhen talking about the accomplishments of your own teacher it's easy for others to take what is said as "your instructor is illegitimate" or "just not as good as theirs," but when I or someone else discusses GM Lim, please don't take it that way. There are so many fantastic Hapkido practitioners in the world and we are just proud of his accomplishments as you are of your teacher's.I hope this helps clears thing up a bit and wishing y'all the best.Chris LaCavaChristopher LaCava, M.S., L.Ac.Acupuncture Center of Westport http://www.LaCavaAcupuncture.com President, Connecticut Society of Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine http://www.csaom.org LaCava's Martial ArtsWestport, CT.http://lmaa.bravepages.comOnline Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_howit works_012009 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 21:12:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO From: Lee Morgan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think we should revive the Curly blocks. Worked fine on TV for Curly!! Lee Morgan --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:15:34 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Puerto Rico Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a request if there are any members living in Puerto Rico could you drop me a private email? Thanks, Rick Clark - www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:27:38 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Robert, > From: Robert Martin [mailto:kickerfour1999@yahoo.com] > Jye, > > The fingertip(s) have a number of uses in ITF TKD. There are seven different "named" attacking tools: Flat Fingertip (Opun Sonkut) used for chiefly > attacking the ribs, eyes and abdomen; Straight fingertip (Sun Sonkut) used tor attacking either the solar plexus and abdomen; Upset Fingertip > (Dwijibun Sonkut) used for attacking the pubic region, floating ribs, lower abdomen and the armpit; Angle Fingertip (Homi Sonkut) used for attacking > the eyes or solar plexus form the right angle; Do you really believe you will take your fingertips and strike the solar plexus, abdomen, ribs, etc.? Take a pillow and fold it up a bit and then take your fingertips and carefully try striking. Personally I can't imagine I would ever want to take my fingertips and strike someone in the abdomen, ribs, armpit, etc. EVEN if I would take the time to thrust my fingers into peas, sand, whatever to toughen them up. Perhaps there are a couple of people out there that can, but I should think those are a rather rare breed. Perhaps the more exotic hand positions are used in some other manner than obvious explinations? Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 21:24:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO From: Lee Morgan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick wrote: "I have been around a lot of Shotokan folks over the years and I really don't think they have any better grasp of how to use various "hand weapons" any better than any other group or style. Hello Rick, I believe it was in Funakoshi's book "Karate Do Kyohan", or maybe it was "Karate Do Nyumon" (if someone really wants to know I'll go back and look it up---but it's in one of them) that Funakoshi wrote that even he didn't know many of the techniques within the kata. So, I guess that would explain your observations within Shotokan schools. It would also go a long way in explaining why the TKD "founders" didn't teach many of the techniques found within Kata----because they were never taught. Lee Morgan --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:38:05 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > From: Ray [mailto:thedojang@sbcglobal.net] > For TKD I'd say one influence is the strong emphasis on kicking to the > head. That is one of the ways one won (one won??) in Taekkyon, as I > understand it. [Rick] Yes TKD does kick to the head, but then that's not confined to TKD. You will see folks in Shotokan (for example) kicking to the head as well, with the same kicks used in TKD. In the more modern TKD you can tell a difference in TKD kicks and Karate kicks, but then if you look back at the old school TKD folks the kicks seem very similar to me. > In Sung Moo Kwan / Sin Moo Hapkido many of the kicks are very Korean > (Taekkyon and Samrangdo Tekki) in nature and not Karate-ish kicks at > all. [Rick] How are the kicks different than in Karate? > > Ray > > On Jan 16, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Rick Clark wrote: > > > Out of curiosity, what do you see as the influences from Korea? Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:20:41 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Rick, I saw VERY little kicking to the head in Shotokan in the 70s and 80s, even now. While there was a LOT of kicking to the head in TSD and TKD in that same timeframe. Shotokan seldom kicks above the abdomen, and probably for good reason. It was an isolated incident, I agree, but in a Shotokan tourny in Illinois in 1974 there was one competitor that was Tang Soo Do or Taekwondo. The Korean stylist got in the first kick, a clean and solid knock down with a high sidekick to the head. But the Shotokan judges would not score it an ippon stating the kicker lacked solid grounding given the height of the kick. The Shotokan guy eventually won with a front kick + back fist to the abdomen. I know, no surprise there... :) Regarding the Taekkyon/Samrangdo style kicks that Gm Ji teaches, in totality there are more circular and slicing style kicks and fewer linear kicks (e.g. front kick or side kick). Of the "25 Basic Kicks" I'd say seven (+ or -) could pass as Karate-type kicks. There is also less kicking with the ball of the foot as in a front kick and more kicks with the blade of the foot or with the toes in a slicing/cutting/ sweeping motion. Something that may not hurt the opponent all that much if the kicker is barefooted, but works well when wearing hard sole shoes. I think a google of "25 basic kicks" may show some example videos, but some vids are done against a target and they usually make much more sense when demoed against an opponent. Ray On Jan 17, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Rick Clark wrote: > Hi Ray, > >> From: Ray [mailto:thedojang@sbcglobal.net] >> For TKD I'd say one influence is the strong emphasis on kicking to >> the >> head. That is one of the ways one won (one won??) in Taekkyon, as I >> understand it. > > [Rick] Yes TKD does kick to the head, but then that's not confined > to TKD. > You will see folks in Shotokan (for example) kicking to the head as > well, > with the same kicks used in TKD. In the more modern TKD you can > tell a > difference in TKD kicks and Karate kicks, but then if you look back > at the > old school TKD folks the kicks seem very similar to me. > >> In Sung Moo Kwan / Sin Moo Hapkido many of the kicks are very Korean >> (Taekkyon and Samrangdo Tekki) in nature and not Karate-ish kicks at >> all. > > [Rick] How are the kicks different than in Karate? --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:52:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mr. Martin, Yes indeed I have a copy and have been converting it into a pdf format for myself (easier searching), and I have come across the section on hand weapons. I am familiar with the hand weapons and the targets as stated in the encyclopedia; however, there is no instruction on proper conditioning, exercises, martial usage, etc for these weapons. If you are training in these hand weapons where did you receive instruction on actual applications? what were the methods you were taught to condition your fingers? It is one thing to say this hand weapon's target is XYZ and another thing to actual train in the method to be able to use it. Now you've mentioned targets such as the ribs, sternum even the abdomen for these finger weapons, now that is only part of the puzzle, how many of your students do you think could strike these targets with the various hand weapons (using fingers) do you think could do so without injury?   My position on this stems from my background using primarily my fingers in snake fist boxing. A person is not going to look in the TKD encyclopedia today and see finger weapons and targets and go out and be able to use them...lol. They are going to have a painful awakening if they do without being properly trained. A while ago I shared some methods I've actually used and trained in for finger strikes, and it is not something that you will do and become proficient at over night, and I know alot of TKD schools aren't even teaching any methods to forge the tool to be able to use it. That's my 2 cents.   Jye --- On Sat, 1/17/09, Robert Martin wrote: From: Robert Martin Subject: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Saturday, January 17, 2009, 8:27 PM Jye, The fingertip(s) have a number of uses in ITF TKD. There are seven different "named" attacking tools: Flat Fingertip (Opun Sonkut) used for chiefly attacking the ribs, eyes and abdomen; Straight fingertip (Sun Sonkut) used tor attacking either the solar plexus and abdomen; Upset Fingertip (Dwijibun Sonkut) used for attacking the pubic region, floating ribs, lower abdomen and the armpit; Angle Fingertip (Homi Sonkut) used for attacking the eyes or solar plexus form the right angle; Thumb (Umji) used to attack the solar plexus, ribs, eyes, windpipe and armpit; Forefinger (Han Songarak) used mainly in attacking he eyes, windpipe and mastoid; and the Double Fingertip (Doo Songarak) used only against the eyes. There are a couple of other techniques that use the forefingers but are not classed with the above. There are also maybe 5 or 6 pages in the condensed Encyclopedia dedicated to these techniques. I'm sorry you instructor wasn't aware of all everything the encyclopedia said on the subject. If I remember correctly you said you own a copy (full one or condensed?). You should take a look. Robert Martin -- __--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:44:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net lol. seriously though, there are applications for both. My instructors actually taught us usage for the single finger hand weapon which was an attack to the corners of the eyes to injure and pop out the opponent's eyes. As far as the double finger in some snake styles that is the fist they make which can be used for striking, seizing etc. it's too bad that real techniques/tactics with these hand weapons wasn't covered in place of useless stuff like "flying in- flying out" material.   Jye -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6206 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:37:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes there fingers when conditioned properly are like iron nails. However, knowing the targets is only have the battle. TKD provides no instruction on conditioning or using these weapons on your opponent. The fact that someone is teaching to strike the abdomen with fingers is a clear sign that no indepth knowledge has been transmitted. The armpit yes but that is because of meridian points but you have to know the exact point and be able to get to that point, something that TKD doesn't have instruction on. IMHO   Jye --- On Sat, 1/17/09, Rick Clark wrote: Do you really believe you will take your fingertips and strike the solar plexus, abdomen, ribs, etc.? Take a pillow and fold it up a bit and then take your fingertips and carefully try striking. Personally I can't imagine I would ever want to take my fingertips and strike someone in the abdomen, ribs, armpit, etc. EVEN if I would take the time to thrust my fingers into peas, sand, whatever to toughen them up. Perhaps there are a couple of people out there that can, but I should think those are a rather rare breed. Perhaps the more exotic hand positions are used in some other manner than obvious explinations? Rick Clark --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest