Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:23:03 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #27 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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RE: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Rick Clark) 2. RE: hapkido (J R Hilland) 3. finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Robert Martin) 4. finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Robert Martin) 5. fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES (Donald) 6. TKD kicks (freddie bishop) 7. Upcoming boxing matches (Ken McDonough) 8. Take off your clothes (The_Dojang) 9. 13th Golden State TKD Open Chip (Ray) 10. RE: Take off your clothes (michael tomlinson) 11. RE: fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES (michael tomlinson) 12. Re: fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 23:52:38 -0500 From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Lee, From: Lee Morgan Rick wrote: "I have been around a lot of Shotokan folks over the years and I really don't think they have any better grasp of how to use various "hand weapons" any better than any other group or style. Hello Rick, I believe it was in Funakoshi's book "Karate Do Kyohan", or maybe it was "Karate Do Nyumon" (if someone really wants to know I'll go back and look it up---but it's in one of them) that Funakoshi wrote that even he didn't know many of the techniques within the kata. So, I guess that would explain your observations within Shotokan schools. It would also go a long way in explaining why the TKD "founders" didn't teach many of the techniques found within Kata----because they were never taught. I don't remember that from one of his books but I don't doubt that its in there. Egami in his book on Shotokan said something like that. As well he talked about going to Okinawa to learn the "secrets". But he found only one person who could knock him down, but he did not ask him how he did it. So he went back to Japan no wiser. I guess the Okinawans did not want a Japanese to get a "drink" from the source. I do agree with you that stuff was not taught to the Koreans. There may be all kinds of social and cultural reasons. But I suspect the Japanese were taught only the physical education version which became sport Karate of the JKA and other groups. The Koreans were even further from the source and it has moved further from a martial art (read as a fighting art) to the Olympic sport we see today. Rick Clark Lee Morgan _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:46:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am glad to hear you say that as the jungki folks have been singing the same tune for so long that it has really gotten old. <<< Didn't GM Lim only start in Hapkido/Hapkiyusul in 1965?>>> <<< When talking about the accomplishments of your own teacher it's easy for others to take what is said as "your instructor is illegitimate" or "just not as good as theirs," but when I or someone else discusses GM Lim, please don't take it that way.>>> Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:07:42 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Clark I have taken my fingertips and struck these very areas. If you condition the hands and fingers and strike the correct targets then it isn't much of a problem. I have seen the very die hard (not me -- I run computers for a living) break multiple 1" and 2" boards with a flat fingertip thrust. Of course we have also practiced pressure point/nerve motor point attacks with the same tools. Robert Martin -- __--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:27:38 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do you really believe you will take your fingertips and strike the solar plexus, abdomen, ribs, etc.? Take a pillow and fold it up a bit and then take your fingertips and carefully try striking. Personally I can't imagine I would ever want to take my fingertips and strike someone in the abdomen, ribs, armpit, etc. EVEN if I would take the time to thrust my fingers into peas, sand, whatever to toughen them up. Perhaps there are a couple of people out there that can, but I should think those are a rather rare breed. Perhaps the more exotic hand positions are used in some other manner than obvious explinations? Rick Clark -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6223 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:20:40 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, I do understand where you are coming from. Training and instruction are the heart of the matter. I don't think anyone could learn any martial art of a book. It has to be taught by an instructor who was taught by an instructor and so on. Unfortunately to many TKD instructors don't have the necessary knowledge to teach correctly. Too many of them left their instructors before they really had the necessary knowledge. I feel fortunate that my master instructor learned his art from Grand Master Sereff who learned his art from Major General Choi. I know train with Grand Master Sereff. Yes my students can delivery a fingertip correctly with the right tool, power and technique. The encyclopedia lists and number of methods (yes, I know, all physical; no "magic" salve) to train all parts of the body. Gen. Choi had the scariest hand I've every seen. Chuck Sereff is right behind him. I don't push students to go that far -- tough yes, rock hard not necessary. Robert Martin -- __--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:52:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Mr. Martin, Yes indeed I have a copy and have been converting it into a pdf format for myself (easier searching), and I have come across the section on hand weapons. I am familiar with the hand weapons and the targets as stated in the encyclopedia; however, there is no instruction on proper conditioning, exercises, martial usage, etc for these weapons. If you are training in these hand weapons where did you receive instruction on actual applications? what were the methods you were taught to condition your fingers? It is one thing to say this hand weapon's target is XYZ and another thing to actual train in the method to be able to use it. Now you've mentioned targets such as the ribs, sternum even the abdomen for these finger weapons, now that is only part of the puzzle, how many of your students do you think could strike these targets with the various hand weapons (using fingers) do you think could do so without injury?   My position on this stems from my background using primarily my fingers in snake fist boxing. A person is not going to look in the TKD encyclopedia today and see finger weapons and targets and go out and be able to use them...lol. They are going to have a painful awakening if they do without being properly trained. A while ago I shared some methods I've actually used and trained in for finger strikes, and it is not something that you will do and become proficient at over night, and I know alot of TKD schools aren't even teaching any methods to forge the tool to be able to use it. That's my 2 cents.   Jye --- On Sat, 1/17/09, Robert Martin wrote: -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.8 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 6223 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Donald" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:34:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Clark wrote: Do you really believe you will take your fingertips and strike the solar plexus, abdomen, ribs, etc.? Take a pillow and fold it up a bit and then take your fingertips and carefully try striking. Personally I can't imagine I would ever want to take my fingertips and strike someone in the abdomen, ribs, armpit, etc. EVEN if I would take the time to thrust my fingers into peas, sand, whatever to toughen them up. Perhaps there are a couple of people out there that can, but I should think those are a rather rare breed. " I would respectfully reply, Sir, that: - fingertip strikes are present in some of the ITF blackbelt forms. True, they may not be explained or 'taught' in some dojangs, but they are in the system. - my understanding is that fingertip strikes are intended for soft tissue targets. - fingertips are another weapon in the arsenal, not the primary ones. - applications? face-to-face bear hug, arms pinned: yes, head butts, knees, instep stomps, shin kicks and scrapes might work. A fingertip strike [think I'd personally use the thumb] to the solar plexus will cause more pain in that position than a fist [well, unless you have Bruce Lee's famous 1 inch punch which I don't]. - face-to-face bear hug, arms out, below the attacker's - a fingertip strike to the floating rib area or armpits may be your best option. TKD, and I suspect most other martial arts, have many techniques and variations so that beyond the basics, a person can find those techniques that work best for their body physiology and a particular self-defense situation. To Jye, Sir, while 'iron finger' conditioning may appeal to some, IMVVHO fingertip strikes in TKD are intended for soft tissue only, so 'conditioning' may not be necessary. Even a steroid-laced body-builder will still have an unprotected nerve center in the armpit... at least I've never seen a person who had the lat and pec grown together LOL - although there WAS this guy in purple spandex... My 2 cents, with no disrespect intended for anyone. pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:44:33 -0800 (PST) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In the 1980's we were taught karate-ish kicks, but by the end of the 80's the instructor had done away with side kicks. The emphasis was a defensive spinning back kicks and roundhouse-ish kicks aimed at the torso. For offense, roundhouse-ish kicks, and ax kicks were practiced. Blocking techniques and open hand strikes were not practiced either. I left the school because of the sport emphasis. I was interested self defense. Fred --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:15:32 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Upcoming boxing matches Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Changing the subject. Any of your martial artists into boxing ?  You know, the sweet science...anyway...Next week is the upcoming Margarito vs. Moseley fight. I gotta go with Margarito. That guy is big for a welterweight. Moseley is talented but aging and he looked terrible against Mayorga who is a chump.   Then my man Kelly Pavlik is fighting against Rubio in February. Pavlik is a beast at 160 and I say he knocks out Rubio.   Thats it guys and ladies...ok back to your discussions.   Ciao,   K down in T   --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:20:54 -0800 From: The_Dojang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Take off your clothes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.gracieacademy.com/gracieinsiderjan09tom.htm Rear naked choke. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:41:18 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] 13th Golden State TKD Open Chip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 13th Golden State TKD Open Chip Saturday, March 14 Cal Poly Pomona 3801 West Temple Ave Pomona, CA 91768 Directed by Wung Hee Lee For more info: 626.286.6500; http://www.gsotkd.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Take off your clothes Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:20:59 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Learned that technique for the first time in 1970 and I'm sure many on here knew that technique way before me..we do it almost the exact same way..the one thing they left out that is important is that when you do this technique on someone for real they will be moving around and trying to pull forward or sideways so we NEVER teach the person to place the choking hand on the bicep..we teach to place it on the shoulder..and by focusing on touching the shoulder..in the heat of the battle and all the movement your opponent will pull your arm down to the bicep...but if you focus on putting it on the bicep in the beginning when your opponent moves and resists he can very likely pull your arm down past the bend of your elbow and then you can't lock the choke up and have to move to a different technique...it's a subtle difference in teaching but one that I have found in real life situations makes the difference between it working or not...does this make any sense to anyone??? Sometimes this stuff is hard to explain on the internet... Michael Tomlinson > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:20:54 -0800 > From: the.dojang.digest@gmail.com > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Take off your clothes > > http://www.gracieacademy.com/gracieinsiderjan09tom.htm > > Rear naked choke. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_01200 9 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:10:56 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We have quite a few fingertip, thumb, two finger, three finger, four finger, tiger claw=fingertips, cupping palm, etc..and etc...stikes in Hapkido...in the old KHA curriculum there is a slew of these..basically you use different areas of your hand, fingers, knuckles and forearm to hit in many different areas and situations...we practice a lot of two finger strikes, tiger claw, and tiger mouth strikes in my classes..BUT..we always explain where to strike with each one of these and then we practice on padded targets and moving targets so you get the feel and movement of how they work...a two finger strike is very dangerous if you go to the right areas with it..we also have one knuckle, middle knuckle and thumb knuckle strikes..and again..it's important to know where and where not to hit with them..and the self defense situations to use them in.....PLUS..I have personally developed a very lethal technique over the years with quite a bit of research..it's called the "pull my finger technique"...and believe me you don't want to be around when I unleash that technique!!! Some have called it the original organic dirty bomb....and it is...LOL Michael Tomlinson ps..here is a list of them from our curriculum sheets: Hapkido Striking: Fingers and Hand; 1. Thumb Knuckle 2. One Knuckle 3. Middle Knuckle 4. Four Knuckle 5. Thumb Pluck 6. Dragon Tooth 7. Two Finger 8. Spear Hand 9. Tiger Claw 10. Tiger Mouth 11. Palm Heel 12. Cupping Strike 13. Sudo-palm up 14. Reverse Sudo-palm down 15. Hammer Fist 16. Advanced Hammer Fist 17. Ridge hand 18. Backfist 19. Dragon Tail 20. Straight Fist 21. 45 Degree Fist 22. Vertical Fist Forearm: 23. Thrusting Forearm 24. Diagonal Forearm-cutting 25. Upward Forearm Elbow: 26. Cross Elbow 27. Reverse Elbow 28. Upward Elbow 29. Downward Elbow 30. Diagonal Elbow 31. Thrusting Elbow Shoulder: 32. Forward strike Head: 32. Thrusting Head But 33. Upward Head But Knee: 34. Upward Knee 35. Crossing Knee 36. Diagonal Knee 37. Thrusting Knee 38. Dropping Knee _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:22:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On the way to iron finger conditioning there are several levels of conditioning a practitioner will reach; the highest causing your fingers to be like iron nails at a price, but in between starting and that level there are levels where your fingers will be tuff yet without the harsh transformation. These levels are even fine to protect against injury. Now of course we can use the fingers in a grappling situation but in my opinion if someone can grab you you could be dead for many reasons- friends, weapon, etc.   In my training we trained of course for a grappling situation, but also for a situation for before any grappling has occured. When 2 people standoff and this is the focus of my point. Before you get put into the bear hug, how would you use those hand weapons? jye --- On Sun, 1/18/09, Donald wrote: To Jye, Sir, while 'iron finger' conditioning may appeal to some, IMVVHO fingertip strikes in TKD are intended for soft tissue only, so 'conditioning' may not be necessary. Even a steroid-laced body-builder will still have an unprotected nerve center in the armpit... at least I've never seen a person who had the lat and pec grown together LOL - although there WAS this guy in purple spandex... My 2 cents, with no disrespect intended for anyone. pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest