Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:06:07 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #29 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Punches... (J. Thomas Howard) 2. RE: fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES (Rick Clark) 3. Re: RE: Punches... (Jye nigma) 4. RE: fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES (Thomas Gordon) 5. Re: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Rick Clark) 6. RE: finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Thomas Gordon) 7. RE: this and that... (J R Hilland) 8. Ninja Video (charlie@tsdofla.com) 9. RE: Finger Strikes... (Bert Edens) 10. RE: Grip Strength (Bert Edens) 11. Re: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Ray) 12. SPEAR HAND BREAKS (Gordon Okerstrom) 13. Re: Doju Choi 9th dans (Chris LaCava) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J. Thomas Howard" To: Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:41:56 -0600 Organization: Nebraska Hapkido Association Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Punches... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Zeishe wrote: > I used to box in college when I was a middle weight. Nothing > makes for a more definitive strike than punching in boxing. > This was borne out recently on tv when they measured > velocity. Interestingly, kung fu punch was weakest (adapted > from Bruce Lee's one inch punch).? Hmm. I think you have your memories mixed. If you are talking about the show on martial arts created by the National Geographic channel, they measured two things: velocity, and impact force. For velocity, the kung fu punch was by far the fastest. For impact force, the boxer's punch was the strongest. That all being said, the conclusions reached by the show were not indicative of things in general. Power-wise, you had a kung fu practitioner who weighed about 1/2 of what the boxer did, and a boxer who wore full gloves and presumably wrist wraps giving him wrist support. These two are being compared in terms of punch strength? Answer seems pretty obvious---which is not the same as it being universally true. (This is one of the things I have my high school science students discuss---how numerical answers can be misleading based on the way the experiment is run.) Nothing against boxing at all, by the way. Boxing is a great sport that teaches good movement, good hand skills, strength, and conditioning. And like all other sports, it has its weaknesses. Primarily, that boxers are used to wrist support, and protected hands---and yet strike the same way without said support and protection. (There is a reason they call it a "boxer's fracture" after all.) I'll note that this is yet another good example of "you will perform how you train." I do think every martial artist should spar against boxers periodically, so that the martial artists learn to protect their head, and learn to move when multiple strikes come at them. Of course, I believe that martial artists should spar with people outside their own style, so boxing is just another example. Thomas H. Nebraska Hapkido Association --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:22:09 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Clark Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Don, On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Donald wrote: > Master Clark wrote:    Do you really believe you will take your fingertips and strike the solar plexus, abdomen, ribs, etc.? Take a pillow and fold it up a bit and then take your fingertips and carefully try striking.  Personally I can't imagine I would ever want to take my fingertips and strike someone in the abdomen, ribs, armpit, etc. EVEN if I would take the time to thrust my fingers into peas, sand, whatever to toughen them up.  Perhaps there are a couple of people out there that can, but I should think those are a rather rare breed. "  I would respectfully reply, Sir, that:     - fingertip strikes are present in some of the ITF blackbelt forms. True, they may not be explained or 'taught' in some dojangs, but they are in the system.     - my understanding is that fingertip strikes are intended for soft tissue targets.     - fingertips are another weapon in the arsenal, not the primary ones.     - applications? face-to-face bear hug, arms pinned: yes, head butts, knees, instep stomps,  shin kicks and scrapes might work. A fingertip strike [think I'd personally use the thumb] to the solar plexus will cause more pain in that position than a fist [well, unless you have Bruce Lee's famous 1 inch punch which I don't].     - face-to-face bear hug, arms out, below the attacker's - a fingertip strike to the floating rib area or armpits may be your best option. __________________________ I have been in the martial arts for a few years, and I have never run across someone who would use the tips of their fingers to strike a person in the ribs or any hard target. Can they be used against the eyes and throat? Sure, but unless you have done a lot of training to have very strong fingers there is a good chance to jam or break them. That being said I have used an open hand to strike pressure points and cause a KO, so I do understand the value of an open hand. But the hand formations are not always what may seem like the most obvious strike. For example the spear hand technique of all four fingers is most often explained as a thrust with the finger tips to the solar plexus. But what if the person is not straight on and your angle of attack is not straight on as well? You could be striking with other parts of the open hand and striking points other than the solar plexus. _______________________________________ pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:49:09 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Punches... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ...and on top of that I think the kung fu guy was wushu.   Jye --- On Sun, 1/18/09, J. Thomas Howard wrote: That all being said, the conclusions reached by the show were not indicative of things in general. Power-wise, you had a kung fu practitioner who weighed about 1/2 of what the boxer did, and a boxer who wore full gloves and presumably wrist wraps giving him wrist support. These two are being compared in terms of punch strength? Answer seems pretty obvious---which is not the same as it being universally true. (This is one of the things I have my high school science students discuss---how numerical answers can be misleading based on the way the experiment is run.) --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:33:58 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grand Master Hwang (ITF K-9-1) talks about doing that as a signature technique. I've personally seen men break two 1" boards with a spear hand (flat finger tip). I've heard of people breaking 3-4 boards. Seen thumb breaks and other things that I personally thought was totally insane. Some of them are fake/staged but some is "fer real." I do a ridge hand (reverse knife hand) at crotch level through 3 boards as a crowd pleaser also did at my last testing...but that's about as crazy as I get. At one testing, this guy got pressured by the Koreans into breaking with a spear hand for a single board. He hit as hard as he could and the board didn't break...loud thud - but no breaky. His middle and ring finger swelled up the size of his thumb. Koreans laughed at him - and it was kinda funny in that mean kinda way. Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:07:59 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Clark Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 11:20 PM, Ray wrote: > Hi Rick, I saw VERY little kicking to the head in Shotokan in the 70s and 80s, even now.  While there was a LOT of kicking to the head in TSD and TKD in that same timeframe.  Shotokan seldom kicks above the abdomen, and probably for good reason. My experience with Shotokan is a bit different. I have taught a lot of semianrs in Shotokan groups that teach kicks to the head, and even if you look at some of the older Shotokan books you will see kicks to the head demonstrated. There is one of the old school Shotokan (Japanese) instructors that had the ability to jump and kick head height and would end up behind the opponent. I can't remember his name but as I recall it started with "A" Asano or something like that. It was an isolated incident, I agree, but in a Shotokan tourny in Illinois in 1974 there was one competitor that was Tang Soo Do or Taekwondo.  The Korean stylist got in the first kick, a clean and solid knock down with a high sidekick to the head.  But the Shotokan judges would not score it an ippon stating the kicker lacked solid grounding given the height of the kick.  The Shotokan guy eventually won with a front kick + back fist to the abdomen.  I know, no surprise there...  :) Sure - judges are not always "fair" :-) But then I was at open tournaments back in the 60's and saw a lot of head kicks, and not just from the TKD folks. Regarding the Taekkyon/Samrangdo style kicks that Gm Ji teaches, in totality there are more circular and slicing style kicks and fewer linear kicks (e.g. front kick or side kick).  Of the "25 Basic Kicks" I'd say seven (+ or -) could pass as Karate-type kicks.  There is also less kicking with the ball of the foot as in a front kick and more kicks with the blade of the foot or with the toes in a slicing/cutting/sweeping motion.  Something that may not hurt the opponent all that much if the kicker is barefooted, but works well when wearing hard sole shoes. I don't follow the modern style of TKD much but I don't see a lot of kicks that look like the ones you describe. What I see are kicks that lack "focus" Kime in Japanese ( no idea what the word is in Korean). Kicking with the instep of the foot rather than the ball of the foot, but then that's been around for qutie some time now. I think a google of "25 basic kicks" may show some example videos, but some vids are done against a target and they usually make much more sense when demoed against an opponent. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWCLMmEH_88&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0m7aWtPMgA The clips above show (Song Duk Ki) I think and I do admit he looks quite old, but the type of kicks he is doing seem to have little in common with some of the more "flash" Taekyun clips on Youtube. I ran across a clip of TKD from 1957 that was interesting to me, it shows some sparring and if you look they are using their hands a LOT more than what we see today. In fact I would guess there is not the 70/30 or 80/20 we used to say we used hands to feet percent. From 1956 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAx466yXTD0&feature=related in an early section of the clip I "think" it shows Son Duk Son in his early years before coming to the US. The face and body movement are almost the same then as when I knew him back in the 60's thru the 80"s. Then you can see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfUxh3gt1w4&feature=related that show Mas Oyama teaching Karate in Korea. I know Oyama was Korean, but he developed Kokyunshin Kai and took a Japanese name. So there was Japanese Karate influence even in 1967. Anyway, I suspect what we see today of TKD and Taekyun are very different that what was taught prior to 1945 as a martial art of Korea. Ray Rick Clark --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:33:54 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Yes indeed I have a copy and have been converting it into a pdf format for myself (easier searching)" Already in PDF format on the CD collection. $49.99 at www.comdo.com Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:27:43 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: this and that... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You know after all these years, wrist pushups have saved me from white belts tweaking my wrist more than anything else. <<>> Tisk, tisk Jack, and you are a cop. :) <<>> --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:23:23 -0800 (PST) From: charlie@tsdofla.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ninja Video Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Haven't been on here in a while, so if somebody has recently posted this, my apologies! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3eNx0LBrmY --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Bert Edens To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:29:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Finger Strikes... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > -----Original Message----- > From: michael tomlinson > > Fingers and Hand; > 1. Thumb Knuckle Ooooh, I love this one... I remember a defense I did from a lapel grab where I trapped with my left hand and used my thumb knuckle to their jaw hinge... They tried to let go (of course, I had them trapped already :) and talked funny for an hour... :) That's a good one for the temple too, but obviously, not a target to play around with in class... *bows* - Bert --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Bert Edens To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:45:51 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Grip Strength Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > -----Original Message----- > Most people don't train any conditioning for their hands...we > do reverse push ups to build up the wrists..and we hit pads > and bodies with the different strikes....one thing that I do > is lift weights...my favorite strength drill for fingers and > grip is...I have several plastic bottles...2 liter, 1 liter, > etc...filled with sand and some with aquarium gravel...I > squeeze and grip them from all kinds of grips while I watch > tv...so I do it for hours sometimes...the plastic bottles > filled with sand feel exactly like a human body...works great.. > > Michael Tomlinson Greetings, all... Like some others, I don't do anything specifically for conditioning fingertips and such (again, a computer job) and my instructor will probably never let me break with a fingertip technique because of that... However, I do a lot of things similar to Mr. Tomlinson when it comes to strengthening grip... I've ALWAYS got a racquetball at my desk at work and spend most of the day while on the phone squeezing it. Another favorite is putting several wide rubber bands around my fingers and work on opening my grip as much as I can... I also like to carry things as much as I can with just my fingers to strengthen my grip... One of my favorites is to carry two liter bottles of pop around Wal-Mart while shopping with the wife... I just pinch the cap with my fingertips (sometimes with the tips, sometimes with the flat of the fingers, as each grip works muscles differently) and lug them around... Get some funny looks, but they leave me alone... Ah, the things we do for our arts :) *bows* - Bert Edens, II Dan TKD Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:12:15 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It would be easier to understand them better if they were shown against an opponent, but here is one link to the 25 basic kicks of Hapkido (particularly Sung Moo Kwan and Sin Moo). When the fellow puts his hand on the ground during a kick, that is the way the kick is to be performed. http://video.aol.com/video-detail/25-basic-kicks-of-sin-moo-hapkido/2305843011142458834 But you can still easily see the similarity to the kicks of Taekkyon (and less so Karate or TKD), minus the dancing around... :) The more recent Taekkyon clips from Korea seem to show Kukki-TKD folks trying to do Taekkyon. When the action heats-up you tend to see the more linear Karate-ish kicks coming out. I think what you term lack of focus, and I really can't disagree, is the change over the last 30 years to speed and multiple techniques. In the 60s & 70s there was more 'focus' on one strong well focused technique that would end the fight (or match)... altho it seldom did unless the opponent was standing perfectly still. Esp once people pad- up that is far less likely to occur, so the movement was to faster and multiple techniques which resulted in a greater chance of scoring match points. Ray On Jan 18, 2009, at 8:07 PM, Rick Clark wrote: > I don't follow the modern style of TKD much but I don't see a lot of > kicks that look like the ones you describe. What I see are kicks that > lack "focus" Kime in Japanese ( no idea what the word is in Korean). > Kicking with the instep of the foot rather than the ball of the foot, > but then that's been around for qutie some time now. > > I think a google of "25 basic kicks" may show some example videos, but > some vids are done against a target and they usually make much more > sense when demoed against an opponent. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWCLMmEH_88&feature=related > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0m7aWtPMgA > > The clips above show (Song Duk Ki) I think and I do admit he looks > quite > old, but the type of kicks he is doing seem to have little in common > with some of the more "flash" Taekyun clips on Youtube. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:41:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] SPEAR HAND BREAKS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I believe Master Nabel has a video of the late Master Lee, Jung Nam doing a spear hand break of a few cinder blocks back in 1985 or so. I was there. The pieces of cinder block went everywhere. I have also witnessed other masters breaking 5 to 7 boards with a spear hand. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Chris LaCava To: Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:52:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Doju Choi 9th dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Man, my last post came out like a snot on windshield at 65mph. If your interested the links that I posted... for GM Lim's certificates...http://lmaa.bravepages.com/gmlim.htm For GM Kim, Yun-sang's certificates...http://www.hapkiyusul.com/new/doju3_1.htm We'll see how those come out. Posted by Jere Hilland "I am glad to hear you say that as the jungki folks have been singing the same tune for so long that it has really gotten old." I hear ya, I just got my voice back. ;) It may take some time to warm up to us, but we're fun to have around. Especially after a few cocktails. Take care. Chris LaCava Acupuncture Center of Westport http://www.LaCavaAcupuncture.com President, Connecticut Society of Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine http://www.csaom.org LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest