Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:23:01 +0100 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #30 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: Grip Strength (Jye nigma) 2. Finger tip tech (jeff kiral) 3. RE: finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Jye nigma) 4. Re: Punch impact (zisheged@aol.com) 5. Hand Strikes (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Guhapdo/Iaido (was Re: Doju Choi 9th dans) (Christopher Spiller) 7. RE: fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES (are common) (Master Mark Seidel) 8. RE: Re: Doju Choi 9th dans (michael tomlinson) 9. RE: RE: this and that... (michael tomlinson) 10. Re: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Rick Clark) 11. RE: RE: this and that... (michael tomlinson) 12. Re: Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:57:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Grip Strength To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One thing I try to do is grip something that is actually slightly wider then my hand so only the pads on my fingers are in contact and I work on that type of gripping power as well. To give you an idea, I use to carry computers (one in each hand) like that; to and from job sites. The purpose of it is to increase gripping strength even on things bigger then your hand like a person's face...lol. The power you'll acheive will make it APPEAR that things 'stick' to your hands.   Jye --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Bert Edens wrote: From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Grip Strength To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 9:45 AM > -----Original Message----- > Most people don't train any conditioning for their hands...we > do reverse push ups to build up the wrists..and we hit pads > and bodies with the different strikes....one thing that I do > is lift weights...my favorite strength drill for fingers and > grip is...I have several plastic bottles...2 liter, 1 liter, > etc...filled with sand and some with aquarium gravel...I > squeeze and grip them from all kinds of grips while I watch > tv...so I do it for hours sometimes...the plastic bottles > filled with sand feel exactly like a human body...works great.. > > Michael Tomlinson Greetings, all... Like some others, I don't do anything specifically for conditioning fingertips and such (again, a computer job) and my instructor will probably never let me break with a fingertip technique because of that... However, I do a lot of things similar to Mr. Tomlinson when it comes to strengthening grip... I've ALWAYS got a racquetball at my desk at work and spend most of the day while on the phone squeezing it. Another favorite is putting several wide rubber bands around my fingers and work on opening my grip as much as I can... I also like to carry things as much as I can with just my fingers to strengthen my grip... One of my favorites is to carry two liter bottles of pop around Wal-Mart while shopping with the wife... I just pinch the cap with my fingertips (sometimes with the tips, sometimes with the flat of the fingers, as each grip works muscles differently) and lug them around... Get some funny looks, but they leave me alone... Ah, the things we do for our arts :) *bows* - Bert Edens, II Dan TKD Springdale, Arkansas _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:00:52 -0800 (PST) From: jeff kiral To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Finger tip tech Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Try striking with a spear hand inside the armpit or under the jaw. Both hurt like hell, which is why I love them so! Best Regards, Jeff Kiral Applications Engineer Pacific Fuel Cell      --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:03:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mine is free (*for me*) lol. thanks for the link though.   Jye --- On Sun, 1/18/09, Thomas Gordon wrote: From: Thomas Gordon Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] finger tips was KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 11:33 PM "Yes indeed I have a copy and have been converting it into a pdf format for myself (easier searching)" Already in PDF format on the CD collection. $49.99 at www.comdo.com Sincerely, Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars on April 17-19, 2009 www.GordonMartialArts.com/new/2009-0419 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 4 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:47:06 -0500 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Punch impact Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A comparison between two people punching is by necessity ridiculous. What might be interesting is to have people punch kung fu and boxing style and see where the SAME person delivers greater impact regarding style. But this reopens another discuccion. I made a point about strength determing fighting success and it received mixed reactions. We might as well ask what tastes better an apple or an orange? Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 5 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:53:32 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hand Strikes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings all: In the old days, the finger spear and thumb breaks were a normal part of demonstrations I did. Conditioning was by way of striking a "headache bag" and closing doors with a finger spear. Used to drive my ex wife crazy lol. Last time I did this demo was at my 20th Can- Am tournament anniversary. Finger spear came off fine, but the thumb fractured. Clear indication that your bones become brittle as you age, and for me it was enough warning to stop exotic hand breaks while I was ahead lol. As Master Gordon mentioned... then incident of me breaking my thumb was met by lots of laughter from the Korean visitors. Fact is, it WAS kinda funny to me too. Long before that, I fought an exhibition match against one of Canada's top boxers of the time. As promised to my students, I put him on the mat (but did not finish him off since it was just an exhibition). I then tried to box with the man, and promptly got my butt beat :). One of the main things I learned from the experience was that I had not worked on "clinching" techniques enough. A lesson taken to heart and passed on to my students. The other lesson reminded me to never fight the other man's game ;) I had forgotten that the event was covered by Karate Illustrated until my friend, Master Booth of OZ, e-mailed me that he had found the article among the old magazines he collects. Reason I mention the last story is that I definitely can attest to the fact that boxers have an awesome punch; however, I also saw that much of the impact was helped by the boxer's hand wraps and tape in an 8 oz glove. That combination makes it feel like getting hit with a rock lol. Warmest personal regards Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:40:23 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Guhapdo/Iaido (was Re: Doju Choi 9th dans) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If your interested the links that I posted... > > for GM Lim's > certificates...http://lmaa.bravepages.com/gmlim.htm Mr. Laclava, I found your post of Grand Master Lim's certificate's very interesting in that his 8th dan in Guhapdo is from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu headmaster Sekiguchi Komei. I was wondeirng if you have had the opportunity to discuss with Grand Master Lim his reasoning for studing Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu? I have read before that Grand Master Choi, Yong Sul would practice kendo with some of his students (I believe this was mentioned in an article by the late Grand Master Michael Wollmershauser, if I recall correctly). Given that Grand Master Choi did this and that Daito Ryu founder Sokaku Takeda was proficient in Ono Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu I was wondering if Grand Master Lim had considered studing that ryu of kenjutsu at all? Also does his style of Chung Suk Guhapdo consist only of drawing and countering skills a la Iaido or does it consist also of more kenjutsu-like techniques (focusing on more general swordsmanship). Thanks in advance. Pax, Chris --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES (are common) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:19:08 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tae Geuk Sa (4) Jung's 2nd move and 4th move is a supported spear hand strike this is taught at Green/Blue Belt level in WTF TKD. Finger Darts or Jabs are also a staple of Combative Martial Arts and many other disciplines. My students training for BB practice punching and jabbing into a bucket of sand that they carry to class and use at home for the 9 months that they start BB testing up to the final test at some point we change to raw beans. I was a little surprised that this subject was not known to so many. Fingers, knuckles and thumbs are a staple of Martial attacks and defense from inception. To the contrary I have never run across any one of substantial training that hasn't been taught this. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Rick Clark [mailto:rick.aodenkou@verizon.net] Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 10:22 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] fINGERTIP TECHNIQUES Hi Don, On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Donald wrote: > Master Clark wrote: B B Do you really believe you will take your fingertips and strike the solar plexus, abdomen, ribs, etc.? Take a pillow and fold it up a bit and then take your fingertips and carefully try striking.B Personally I can't imagine I would ever want to take my fingertips and strike someone in the abdomen, ribs, armpit, etc. EVEN if I would take the time to thrust my fingers into peas, sand, whatever to toughen them up.B Perhaps there are a couple of people out there that can, but I should think those are a rather rare breed. " B I would respectfully reply, Sir, that: B B B - fingertip strikes are present in some of the ITF blackbelt forms. True, they may not be explained or 'taught' in some dojangs, but they are in the system. B B B - my understanding is that fingertip strikes are intended for soft tissue targets. B B B - fingertips are another weapon in the arsenal, not the primary ones. B B B - applications? face-to-face bear hug, arms pinned: yes, head butts, knees, instep stomps,B shin kicks and scrapes might work. A fingertip strike [think I'd personally use the thumb] to the solar plexus will cause more pain in that position than a fist [well, unless you have Bruce Lee's famous 1 inch punch which I don't]. B B B - face-to-face bear hug, arms out, below the attacker's - a fingertip strike to the floating rib area or armpits may be your best option. __________________________ I have been in the martial arts for a few years, and I have never run across someone who would use the tips of their fingers to strike a person in the ribs or any hard target. Can they be used against the eyes and throat? Sure, but unless you have done a lot of training to have very strong fingers there is a good chance to jam or break them. That being said I have used an open hand to strike pressure points and cause a KO, so I do understand the value of an open hand. But the hand formations are not always what may seem like the most obvious strike. For example the spear hand technique of all four fingers is most often explained as a thrust with the finger tips to the solar plexus. But what if the person is not straight on and your angle of attack is not straight on as well? You could be striking with other parts of the open hand and striking points other than the solar plexus. _______________________________________ pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 8 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Doju Choi 9th dans Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:34:55 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <>> Or a couple bottles of Sake as I seem to remember one time!!! Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_howit works_012009 --__--__-- Message: 9 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: this and that... Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:39:09 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jacks taken a LOT of Hapkido falls in Boston....LOL Michael Tomlinson > From: hapkido@far.midco.net > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:27:43 -0600 > Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: this and that... > > You know after all these years, wrist pushups have saved me from white belts > tweaking my wrist more than anything else. > > << pushups to build up the wrists...>>> > > Tisk, tisk Jack, and you are a cop. :) > > << end of the barrel, use proper breath control and squeeze off two into his > brain housing group, That way you don't have to worry about touching your > biceps...>>> > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_01200 9 --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:45:18 -0600 (CST) From: Rick Clark Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Ray wrote: > It would be easier to understand them better if they were shown > against an opponent, but here is one link to the 25 basic kicks of > Hapkido (particularly Sung Moo Kwan and Sin Moo).  When the fellow > puts his hand on the ground during a kick, that is the way the kick is > to be performed. http://video.aol.com/video-detail/25-basic-kicks-of-sin-moo-hapkido/230584301 1142458834   But you can still easily see the similarity to the kicks of Taekkyon (and less so Karate or TKD), minus the dancing around...  :) I had a look at the clip, and really did not see anything there that was far removed from kicks I have seen Karate-ka doing in the past. In fact if you look at Nakayama's book Dynamic Karate you will see basicly the same kicks. Sure there may be a littele difference but by and large the techniques are there. The more recent Taekkyon clips from Korea seem to show Kukki-TKD folks trying to do Taekkyon.  When the action heats-up you tend to see the more linear Karate-ish kicks coming out. I think if you look back at the old style TKD you will see there is not much difference between early TKD and Shotokan - because they were the same thing. Sure the Koreans changed the names and made some changes to make it "Korean", and later they started to add in more and more kicks. But I really don't see this as coming from Taekyun. Or at least from what I have seen from the old guys doing Taekyun on vidoe clips or from pictures. Sure they are older and "may" not be able to kick they way they could as young guys. BUT I have seen Jhoon Ree with some years on him do some spetacular kick. I have video (somewhere) of OLD and I do mean OLD Chinese guys doing some things with stretching and kicks I wish I could do, or could have done in my 30's! From what I have seen the Old School Taekyun did a lot of low kicks and mid-level kicks and a few higher kicks. Then on the youtube clips I have looked at there were a lot of things that looked like more modern acrobatic techinques. It seems to me that Wushu has done the same thing - added stuff to make it more like the Kung Fu flicks. I think what you term lack of focus, and I really can't disagree, is the change over the last 30 years to speed and multiple techniques.  In the 60s & 70s there was more 'focus' on one strong well focused technique that would end the fight (or match)... altho it seldom did unless the opponent was standing perfectly still.  Esp once people pad-up that is far less likely to occur, so the movement was to faster and multiple techniques which resulted in a greater chance of scoring match points. I can't disagree with you here - and this is the thing that I tend to find least appealing about the more modern TKD. As I was flipping around the channels on TV I came up with a "Cage Match". I don't watch a lot of them, few in fact, but one thing that struck me was the lack of kicks, a lot of jabbing punches and looking for a take down. You don't see all of the jumping around in the air, multiple kicks in a row, and they keep their hands up. These are guys that are getting hit and hit hard by someone who is trying to take their head off. It seems to me there might be a lesson to be learned from watching these matches........ Rick Clark Ray On Jan 18, 2009, at 8:07 PM, Rick Clark wrote: > I don't follow the modern style of TKD much but I don't see a lot of > kicks that look like the ones you describe.  What I see are kicks that > lack "focus" Kime in Japanese ( no idea what the word is in Korean). > Kicking with the instep of the foot rather than the ball of the foot, > but then that's been around for qutie some time now. > > I think a google of "25 basic kicks" may show some example videos, but > some vids are done against a target and they usually make much more > sense when demoed against an opponent. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWCLMmEH_88&feature=related >   > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0m7aWtPMgA >   > > The clips above show (Song Duk Ki) I think and I do admit he looks  > quite > old, but the type of kicks he is doing seem to have little in common > with some of the more "flash" Taekyun clips on Youtube. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: this and that... Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:56:40 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Jack..how many times approx. do you think you have landed on the "big red monster mat", in Quincy during Master Whalen's HKD classes???? Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_01200 9 --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KOREA AND TAE KWON DO Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:29:55 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I had a look at the clip, and really did not see anything there that > was > far removed from kicks I have seen Karate-ka doing in the past. In > fact > if you look at Nakayama's book Dynamic Karate you will see basicly the > same kicks. Sure there may be a littele difference but by and large > the > techniques are there. You need to see how they are applied to an opponent. I have the books + the videos + friends in Shotokan, some new, some since the 1960s. The basic kicks of Sung Moo Kwan & Sin Moo Hapkido are for the most part very different than those from Karate and from those in TKD. Maybe 1/3 are similar, but with a different delivery. The other 2/3 are not at all similar. e.g. kick #11, a single kick to the shins/ knees of potentially multiple opponents. > I think if you look back at the old style TKD you will see there is > not > much difference between early TKD and Shotokan - because they were the > same thing. Has anyone disagreed with that? No. But at some point we must progress beyond the 50s. I think we've been discussing what influences came along later that made TKD different from Karate-do. As mentioned, one obvious difference is the emphasis on kicking to the head. Yes it is possible for a JKA stylist to kick to the head, but they seldom will (perhaps wisely). Another is the realization that "one punch, one kill" is, for the most part, a fallacy. The focus on full-contact continuous sparring was the outcome. Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest