Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:31:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #136 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. contracts and business success (freddie bishop) 2. Re: Contracts (Jeff Rush) 3. Re: contracts and business success (Ray) 4. Re: Re: contracts (Jeff Rush) 5. Interesting observation (James Allison) 6. Re: contracts and business success (Jye nigma) 7. Re: CKD (Jye nigma) 8. Re: contracts and business success (Jye nigma) 9. re: Contracts (Lasich, Mark D.) 10. Re: re: Contracts (Thomas Gordon) 11. dan bong (jeff kiral) 12. Re: contracts and business success (Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com) 13. RE: contracts and business success (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:46:50 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If an instructor does not use contracts, how does the instructor deal with sudden dropouts or no shows for a month or two? How do they maintain a flow of income sufficient to pay the monthly bills? Also, how do you know if a school is a belt mill? Respectfully, Fred --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:37:39 -0500 From: Jeff Rush To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Contracts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye nigma wrote: > ok so contracts are to help against the flakers. Any down sides to contracts > for school owners? Yes there are downsides. An owner has to track and allocate his prepaid balances to budgeted expenses so he doesn't run out of cashflow before he has fulfilled his commitments to students. It is very bad when a student pays for a year in advance and the school closes 5 months later due to cashflow issues. We've seen on this list stories about schools being sued for that. There are also tax issues in matching your income of yearly contract renewals against your expenses which are often monthly. I would guess that most schools use cash-based not accrual-based accounting where cash-based has this problem. And there are social issues where a person with a contract is going to feel a greater sense of entitlement from the school and is more likely to push. Someone on monthly who gets upset will likely just walk away, or threaten to do so. -Jeff --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:20:14 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'd say thru good instruction at a clean and friendly facility. A school that pushes contracts, black belt programs, special junior instructor uniforms, GreatGrandmaster-in-training programs is far more likely to be a McDojang than is the school that just asks you to come to the next class and pass the next test. imho Like any new business it can be difficult to get a new school off the ground. We know from personal experience that most of the students that first walk in the door will stop coming whether it be in a month or in a year. But I feel, and I've seen, that if you offer a good program, good instruction, at a clean, safe and friendly facility that new people will join and old students will remain. In times like these there may be fewer students coming in the door, but esp when times are tough wouldn't you rather join a school that just asks you to pay each month rather than one that asks you to sign a two or three year contract? If you want to sign, go for it. There are plenty of contract schools out there. If not then I'm sure a non- contract school would welcome your business and your dedication. Ray On May 18, 2009, at 5:46 PM, freddie bishop wrote: > If an instructor does not use contracts, how does the instructor > deal with sudden dropouts or no shows for a month or two? How do > they maintain a flow of income sufficient to pay the monthly bills? > Also, how do you know if a school is a belt mill? --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:27:37 -0500 From: Jeff Rush To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: contracts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net michael tomlinson wrote: > Where I teach Hapkido we don't use contracts....BUT...I really don't see a > problem with using contracts at all...I have worked out at numerous schools > that require them...usually on a 6 month or a year commitment...guys...what's > the big problem????? When you join the YMCA you have to buy a year > membership or more...uhh..contract...when you get a credit > card...uhhh...contract...when you finance a car..furniture...house...almost > anything involving financing you sign a contract....BUT for some reason people > think when it comes to Martial Arts they shouldn't work with a contract???? > Isn't it a commercial service like all the others you use and sign for in your > daily life??? I'm not pushing a viewpoint but I believe people often distinguish between a contract giving them a tangible object like furniture or a car and one that is for a period of service. When they don't use the service, they feel they are wasting their money. Besides contracts, I'd be curious how other schools handle their non-contracts. Do people just pay per month and remember to do so reliably or are the arrangements more that you pay an upfront fee for a 6-week class on topic X. Or in the case of private lessons, do you just write a check at the start of each session? -Jeff --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:49:48 -0700 (PDT) From: James Allison To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Interesting observation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> <<>> I can say  the "WORST" Hapkido, Taekwondo, Tangsoodo and various other martial arts instructors I know don't use contracts. And they don't teach kids either and only charge pennies on the dollar because they're old school and do it for the Love! Contracts or no contracts don't make you a good or bad school. It's just how some decide to do business.     Respectfully, James Allison --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:51:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree!   Jye --- On Mon, 5/18/09, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 9:20 PM I'd say thru good instruction at a clean and friendly facility. A school that pushes contracts, black belt programs, special junior instructor uniforms, GreatGrandmaster-in-training programs is far more likely to be a McDojang than is the school that just asks you to come to the next class and pass the next test.  imho Like any new business it can be difficult to get a new school off the ground.  We know from personal experience that most of the students that first walk in the door will stop coming whether it be in a month or in a year.  But I feel, and I've seen, that if you offer a good program, good instruction, at a clean, safe and friendly facility that new people will join and old students will remain. In times like these there may be fewer students coming in the door, but esp when times are tough wouldn't you rather join a school that just asks you to pay each month rather than one that asks you to sign a two or three year contract?  If you want to sign, go for it.  There are plenty of contract schools out there.  If not then I'm sure a non-contract school would welcome your business and your dedication. Ray On May 18, 2009, at 5:46 PM, freddie bishop wrote: > If an instructor does not use contracts, how does the instructor deal with sudden dropouts or no shows for a month or two? How do they maintain a flow of income sufficient to pay the monthly bills? Also, how do you know if a school is a belt mill? _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers applySubscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 20:00:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] CKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I used to train with a lot of his former students....lol. I've heard horror studies.   Jye --- On Mon, 5/18/09, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] CKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 4:33 PM Every so often the Atlanta local tv news does a bit on Master Choi and his CKD.  Mostly unknown outside of SE, regardless of the claims. Ray On May 18, 2009, at 12:19 AM, Jye nigma wrote: > "If Bruce Lee were alive he'd come seek out GM Choi..." > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayBTrIkKYIw > > Jye _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers applySubscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:57:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In my opinion, if a person is going to run their school primarily as a business focused on generating revenue, then they should go all the way. Focus on making a brand, write books, make dvds, kick up advertising, etc. If money is the goal then as we say, go hard or go home.   To me, I'm a firm believer that if the experience, and knowledge is quality top notch, then people will join and the serious will stay.     Jye --- On Mon, 5/18/09, freddie bishop wrote: From: freddie bishop Subject: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 8:46 PM If an instructor does not use contracts, how does the instructor deal with sudden dropouts or no shows for a month or two? How do they maintain a flow of income sufficient to pay the monthly bills? Also, how do you know if a school is a belt mill?                                                  Respectfully,                                                  Fred _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:19:51 -0400 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Contracts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Contracts can and should offer something for BOTH parties: the business and the student. While the tendency is to focus on the negative aspects of a contract from a student's point of view, there should be positive aspects as well. A few come to mind: access to a certain number of classes during a week, legal recourse if the school were to close/change locations, insurance coverage while in the facility, perhaps a certain number of "opportunities" to test, etc. Some contracts go by the year, some by the "program" - which can actually be another positive. If a contract is written that it covers training until reaching a specific rank, you continue to attend regardless of how long it actually takes you (due to ability, illness, work schedule, whatever)! I agree with Michael Tomlinson's observations - nearly everything else we do in life comes with some type of contract: from my "2 year" cell phone, to "signing-up" my son for deck hockey. This way there are expectations set, and met - from both sides. These are commitments we make, commitments we keep. Challenging a martial art student to make a commitment, especially for a "DO" art, to me, can actually help reinforce their training goals. In the spirit, Mark Lasich --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: Contracts From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We use contracts and allow prepayment. To keep this simple round numbers, lets say I charge $100 a month for 12 month EFT contract (we refer to it as an agreement), $100 for 12 month prepay, $125 a month for six month prepay, or $150 for three month prepay. This encourages the student to do the EFT contract. This is all about the wording. We don’t use the word contract because of the connotation (especially with gyms that abused their customers). We conveniently draft their account every month and they can chose one of four days (1st, 5th, 15th, or 20th) they wish the payment to come out. I also explain to a customer that the agreement is guaranteeing performance from both of us. I guarantee to have a facility and instructors for 12 months and they guarantee to pay for 12 months. If they wish to pay in three month blocks, they have no price guarantee and I can raise the rates at any time. There is absolutely no pressure – you want to train here or you don’t. If you do – this is how we do business and we’d love to have you. If you don’t – good luck at another school. If you change your mind, come back to see us and we’d still love to have you. Those that have met me know my demeanor when I’m talking to people. While I agree that it’s easier to be a “clip shop” when you can lock people into contracts, it’s the school owners decision to be a crook. We teach martial arts and this is how we keep our doors open and our facility clean. I’ve been in many schools and most of the one’s that offer contracts seem to be better kept and generally fall into two categories: 1 – Belt mill (and sometimes belt mill AND clip shop) 2 – Good martial artist who are also good at business. The ones without contracts typically seem to fall in one of three categories: 1 – taught out of a gym or YMCA 2 – very small program that is basically like a club and at the instructor’s passion 3 – outdated facility in need of upkeep and smell like a bag a dirty gym socks There are certainly exceptions and I’ve seen a few - but a very few. Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:10:13 -0700 (PDT) From: jeff kiral To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] dan bong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A dan bong is a short stick, not a knife. For a short stick to be a "weapon", you would have to prove that the stick was or is being kept for that purpose, regardless of your state or local law. If you use a screwdriver to assault someone, then the screwdriver was a weapon at the time. If the screwdriver is in your pocket, in a tool box, or on your front seat, is it a weapon? Best Regards, Jeff Kiral Applications Engineer Pacific Fuel Cell office: (440)951-5155 cell: (440)856-5879     --__--__-- Message: 12 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:35:07 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I was first introduced to Tae Kwon Do, I didn't like the idea of signing a contract for six months of instruction. I knew that it wasn't just about "dedication", "perseverance" or "commitment", but a business practice, as well. Still, I signed and I took the responsibility to explain to my children (who wanted to join) that once we started, we were committed to finish. The six months went by quickly, and we all wanted to continue. Again, I reluctantly signed a contract for two years of payments that would cover all of our training to black belt. And again, I took the responsibility to explain to my children that once we started, we were committed to finish. Along the way, there were many financial difficulties that would have made me quit if I was left on my own to make or not make a monthly payment. There were times when I had to ask the school owner not to take a payment. We were still welcome, no encouraged, to continue to come and train. We have earned our black belts and signed up for the next goal. This time I had no reservation signing a contract because I know that I have gained the discipline to continue my journey in the martial arts. Now, I am thankful that I was encouraged to make the financial commitment, because that kept me going before I had developed the discipline. Sincerely, Victor Dodge --__--__-- Message: 13 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:54:35 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dude...EXACTLY....again I don't use contracts or neither do the school owners where I teach...BUT...if you understand that you are in this stuff for the long haul then it can be a benefit to your training...vey well said Victor Michael Tomlinson > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Victor.E.Dodge@jci.com > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:35:07 -0500 > > When I was first introduced to Tae Kwon Do, I didn't like the idea of > signing a contract for six months of instruction. > I knew that it wasn't just about "dedication", "perseverance" or > "commitment", but a business practice, as well. > Still, I signed and I took the responsibility to explain to my children > (who wanted to join) that once we started, we were committed to finish. > The six months went by quickly, and we all wanted to continue. > Again, I reluctantly signed a contract for two years of payments that would > cover all of our training to black belt. > And again, I took the responsibility to explain to my children that once we > started, we were committed to finish. > Along the way, there were many financial difficulties that would have made > me quit if I was left on my own to make or not make a monthly payment. > There were times when I had to ask the school owner not to take a payment. > We were still welcome, no encouraged, to continue to come and train. > We have earned our black belts and signed up for the next goal. > This time I had no reservation signing a contract because I know that I > have gained the discipline to continue my journey in the martial arts. > Now, I am thankful that I was encouraged to make the financial commitment, > because that kept me going before I had developed the discipline. > Sincerely, > Victor Dodge > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutoria l_QuickAdd1_052009 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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