Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 01:10:01 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #138 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: contracts and business success (Thomas Gordon) 2. Re: Re: contracts (Thomas Gordon) 3. Contracts (Ray) 4. Re: "A good dojang" (zisheged@aol.com) 5. Re: contracts and business success (Jye nigma) 6. Re: Re: contracts (Jye nigma) 7. RE: dan bong (michael tomlinson) 8. RE: dan bong (Jye nigma) 9. Re: contracts and business success (Thomas Gordon) 10. Re: contracts and business success (Jye nigma) 11. Overly Commercialized MA (Jye nigma) 12. RE: Overly Commercialized MA (Christian Briggs) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote, "Personally, I avoid contracts, but different strokes for different folks." We sign agreements to get long distance, internet, water, cable, power, phone, gym, dance for our daughter, house (regardless of rent or own), car, cell...even the lawn guy hit me up for a 12 month contract. He offered to take care of our lawn for eight months out of the year (that it needs it) and spread it over 12 payments. That was a good deal for both of us. Considering most everything in life is contractual and after explaining that a student that objects, I typically find people that avoid contracts really want to avoid commitment. If a student is knowingly going into a martial art school trying to avoid dedication, then I don't want to waste their time or mine. And I'll ask them point blank, "Do you intend to pay your bill?" (Wait for the shocked "YES!") "All this does is lock in your price, makes sure we get paid on time, and you're not late." If they still object, they have other options - no problem. As Ive mentioned before, always interesting to see from what position a person is writing. Im a school owner and want to offer a solid program for a fair price...and, Id like to sorta get guaranteed timely payments if possible. Most of us sorta, kinda expect that from our employers. :) Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: contracts From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master McCauley wrote, "If people miss their payments, I write their name on the board. It may be that their uniform, or book came in or that they haven't paid. No one likes their name on the board. Students seem to tell other students if they see their name." That's pretty funny. The local Chinese restaurant puts the bad checks on the wall and wrote "Bad people" above it. Hilarious (unless you see your check on the wall...). Probably illegal too since there is a ton of personal info on the check. We got sick of chasing people month after month. With EFT, its not an issue unless there is a NSF. Which could happen if they paid at the counter. With a school of 50+ students, keeping up with monthly payments can be a chore. Ive only seen one school with any size (about 180 students) that did monthly payments and I understand he just switched over to EFT. Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:14:13 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Contracts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm curious about what they do in other parts of the world, e.g. Europe. Are contracts commonly used in dojangs & dojos there? What about Korea? Do the dojangs there require contacts? Just asking, I don't know. Ray --__--__-- Message: 4 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:47:39 -0400 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: "A good dojang" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well...I've been asked that about 10,000 times. I suppose that a school must be clean, safe, a non-belt mill, adequately apportioned with equipment and space, provide kukkiwon certiifcation on time for a reasonable fee and for hard work, be led by a master over 30 years of age etc. You must feel good about going there, get into better shape, develop the code of the Hwa Rang Do as well as other dynamics. Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:25:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't see it as a problem with commitment. If I'm signing a contract it will be for something that I need, such as some of the things you mentioned; phone, internet, water, etc. I guess I'm not really for the over commercialization of the martial arts. There is a tendacy for school owners to be more concerned with making money then producing quality martial artist. It may start out the need to make money to keep the school open, then it goes on to making a profit and next thing you know it's black belt mill simply because a person realizes they can water the art down more to attract more people.   Jye --- On Tue, 5/19/09, Thomas Gordon wrote: From: Thomas Gordon Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, May 19, 2009, 6:49 PM Jye wrote, "Personally, I avoid contracts, but different strokes for different folks." We sign agreements to get long distance, internet, water, cable, power, phone, gym, dance for our daughter, house (regardless of rent or own), car, cell...even the lawn guy hit me up for a 12 month contract.  He offered to take care of our lawn for eight months out of the year (that it needs it) and spread it over 12 payments.  That was a good deal for both of us. Considering most everything in life is contractual and after explaining that a student that objects, I typically find people that avoid contracts really want to avoid commitment.  If a student is knowingly going into a martial art school trying to avoid dedication, then I don't want to waste their time or mine.  And I'll ask them point blank, "Do you intend to pay your bill?" (Wait for the shocked "YES!") "All this does is lock in your price, makes sure we get paid on time, and you're not late."   If they still object, they have other options - no problem. As I’ve mentioned before, always interesting to see from what position a person is writing.  I’m a school owner and want to offer a solid program for a fair price...and, I’d like to sorta get guaranteed timely payments if possible.  Most of us sorta, kinda expect that from our employers.  :) Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:31:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: contracts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Like in Foot Fist Way? lol. Jye --- On Tue, 5/19/09, Curt McCauley wrote: From: Curt McCauley Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: contracts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, May 19, 2009, 4:49 PM In our little school we have 4'x 8' dry erase boards, which I use for diagrams, chinese characters or reminders. I write "RENT IS DUE!!" If people miss their payments, I write their name on the board. It may be that their uniform, or book came in or that they haven't paid. No one likes their name on the board. Students seem to tell other students if they see their name. Keep it simple. Respectfully, Curt McCauley Channel Town Soo Bahk Do _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 7 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dan bong Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 02:01:08 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net what if I tape my screwdriver to the end of my glock 23??? does that count?? Mich ael Tomlinson > From: thedojang@sbcglobal.net > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] dan bong > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:05:15 -0700 > > As long as you keep it a screwdriver or a short stick or a standard > pencil you may be ok. If you put a special grip on it or attach a > cord to it or otherwise optimize it to be used as a weapon, simple > possession -may- be a felony. May... Consult your local, county and > state legal code to be sure. > > Ray > > > A dan bong is a short stick, not a knife. For a short stick to be a > > "weapon", > > you would have to prove that the stick was or is being kept for that > > purpose, > > regardless of your state or local law. If you use a screwdriver to > > assault > > someone, then the screwdriver was a weapon at the time. If the > > screwdriver is > > in your pocket, in a tool box, or on your front seat, is it a weapon? > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has ever-growing storage! Dont worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial _Storage1_052009 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:52:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dan bong To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net LMAO!!! That caught me off guard...lol   Jye --- On Tue, 5/19/09, michael tomlinson wrote: From: michael tomlinson Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dan bong To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tuesday, May 19, 2009, 10:01 PM what if I tape my screwdriver to the end of my glock 23???  does that count??                                                                          Mich ael Tomlinson > From: thedojang@sbcglobal.net > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] dan bong > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:05:15 -0700 > > As long as you keep it a screwdriver or a short stick or a standard > pencil you may be ok.  If you put a special grip on it or attach a > cord to it or otherwise optimize it to be used as a weapon, simple > possession -may- be a felony.  May...  Consult your local, county and > state legal code to be sure. > > Ray > > > A dan bong is a short stick, not a knife. For a short stick to be a > > "weapon", > > you would have to prove that the stick was or is being kept for that > > purpose, > > regardless of your state or local law. If you use a screwdriver to > > assault > > someone, then the screwdriver was a weapon at the time. If the > > screwdriver is > > in your pocket, in a tool box, or on your front seat, is it a weapon? > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial _Storage1_052009 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Jye, Over commercialization is an interesting concept. Is that when a person actually makes enough money to support their family in a reasonable fashion? Those two sentences are both so subjective that its impossible for everyone to agree. About belt mills, contract schools dont own the market on slop passed off for martial arts and people getting rank they are unworthy of. Granted Ive seen more crap come out of contract driven commercial schools than non-contract schools but theres a reason for that. Contract schools are typically larger and have a bigger impact. There are four schools in our town with two that do contracts and two that dont. The contract schools make up about 80% of the students. Ive seen some pretty crummy martial artist wannabes come from non-contract schools. There was a second degree that couldnt even do a correct side kick and yet never paid over $35 a month for tuition without contracts. An instructor has three options: 1 Make a reasonable living for their family (aka apparently this is the dreaded commercial school) 2 Not make a reasonable living and cheat their family by eking by. 3 Teach out of a passion and give their students a part time instructor with part time commitment to the arts. This is not a statement to get people emotional its simply a fact. There are 24 hours in a day and we can only divide that so many ways. Bottom line, if a student isnt going to commit much to me, Im not going to commit much to them. They walk in the door and see a standalone building that is clean, well lit, professional facility with a greeter at the door and professional instructor(s) on the floor. Weve proven our commitment when they walk in the door. We then give them a week to test the waters. After that, its decision time. Speaking of which, curiously, when is the last time you paid tuition for martial arts? Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:40:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] contracts and business success To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My answers below --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Thomas Gordon wrote: Mr Jye, “Over commercialization” is an interesting concept.  Is that when a person actually makes enough money to support their family in a reasonable fashion?  Those two sentences are both so subjective that it’s impossible for everyone to agree. Over commercialization to me is when the instructor goes from the honorable wanting to teach full time and make a living to support their family to becoming greedy and focusing on purely money. People who pass students whether they deserve it or not, watering down the already watered MA to provide a more suitable environment for people who merely want to socialize, or get a good workout, adding on ridiculous costs for everything- sip of warrior water 1.50...lol.   Something that's interesting to share are some words given by my associate Novell G Bell's late teacher...he said if you want to teacher true martial arts then prepare to get a job, because the masses don't want to learn true martial arts because it takes a long time to learn and most people want the fast food approach to MA. I somewhat agree with this because it can be easy to go from honorable to dishonorable anytime making money is involved. Speaking of which, curiously, when is the last time you paid tuition for martial arts? The last time I paid tuition for martial arts was last month....with no contract I might add. Much respect to the teachers who are truly about spreading the MA in a close to pure form as possible who may or may not use contracts. I just find people who are worried about money over MA and use contracts end up watering down an already watered down MA to make even more money. I hate to use drugs as an example, but you take a potent product that will generate a specific amount of $$$, and due to greed you decide you can double that revenue by cutting the product(watering it down)...so you do it like the double revenue, then greed sets in and you're never satisfied, so you cut it and cut it and cut it until it's almost completely weakened yet you make tons of money. MA CAN BE the same way and is in a sense done that way.   Jye --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:59:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Overly Commercialized MA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net An example: http://ma-success.tripod.com/ --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Overly Commercialized MA Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:52:22 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now you've done it. You brought in this guy. hahaha -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 12:59 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Overly Commercialized MA An example: http://ma-success.tripod.com/ _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest