Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 08:31:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #141 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. "Closed door" students (was Re: Honorable vs Dishonorable) (Christopher Spiller) 2. RE: Overly Commercialized MA (Thomas Gordon) 3. moo duk kwan emblem (freddie bishop) 4. RE: Overly Commercialized MA (Jye nigma) 5. USAT Poomsae Team Trials (Ray) 6. Re: "Closed door" students (was Re: Honorable vs Dishonorable) (Scott) 7. WC 2009 Ticket sale now open (Ray) 8. Re: moo duk kwan emblem (Ray) 9. Re: "Closed door" students (was Re: Honorable vs Dishonorable) (Ray) 10. Former S.Korean President Roh Moo Hyun (2003-2008) commits suicide (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 06:37:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "Closed door" students (was Re: Honorable vs Dishonorable) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know it occurs in the more traditional CMA schools. A good friend of mine is the senior student of my former Sifu and has been taught more of the style than the other students except for the Sifu's son (who is my friend's junior). The Sifu in question has been in the States for years but is still, in some ways, very old school Hong Kong. I'd have to say in the classical Koryu this practice of not teaching everything to all students is also quite common. The information is passed on in a somewhat piecemeal manner, from what I have seen, and ranking is done via receiving various certificates from one's teacher, not going through a pre-ordained belt ranking system. Not al students get accepted into the ryu and not every student gets every certificate or is taught every aspect of the ryu. Dave Lowry has written some pretty interesting stuff on this topic. Might want to check out Autumn Lightning and Persimmon Wind for his treatment of it. Pax, Chris > I know this is a common thread, or urban legend, frequently > heard in > the CMAs and in some cases the FMAs, but one wonders how > true it is. > It makes for an interesting story line, but the cases in > which I have > seen that claim made one usually finds something else > actually occurred. > > Ray > > > On May 21, 2009, at 5:45 AM, Robert Wood wrote: > > > The ancient master did not share ALL their > > knowledge with ALL their students.  Only the ones > that proved > > themselves > > worthy learned the “secrets” or “whole” art. > > > -- __--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > > Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang > > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com > Standard disclaimers apply. > Remember September 11. > > > End of The_Dojang Digest --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Overly Commercialized MA From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye, Contracts protect the customer and the business if used correctly. Our contract states how many days we will be open for training, holidays well be closed for, how to get a refund if were closed for a certain period of time, ways to void the contract, NSF fee, etc. I also misspoke (okay, mistyped), everyone signs the contract regardless of doing EFT. If they pay cash, we mark through the EFT form. This allows us to have everything fully explained and in writing so both parties are fully informed. To me, that sounds like it protects everyone. So about 80% of our students are on EFT drafting with 100% on contract. Back to your email, you keep giving the bad examples of contracts and that can be done on either side of any argument. You're assuming people who volunteer aren't commited to the task at hand, and they don't provide the same quality as a full time person. As a rule, yes, that is what I am stating. Its simple math. Assume I have identical twins with identical talents on the mat and identical abilities instructing. They both have the exact same expenses and same size family. Today, twin A gets a full time job working 40 hours a week plus 2.5 hours a day wrapped in getting ready for work, travel, and lunch but he still teaches 2 hours a night in the evenings at a local YMCA offering a one hour class for children and a one hour class for adults. In addition to the lunch time class, twin B teaches at his facility for five hours in evenings offering classes broken down by age and rank. He spends the rest of his time reviewing martial art material, reading, and answering posts on Dojang Digest (okay....not really the last one.) When there is additional training seminars close by, he doesnt have to worry with asking for time off to go to seminars. Who gives the better service to their customer? And in fairness, the twin teaching at YMCA probably charges $45 a month and twin B at the stand alone facility probably charges $125 a month. The YMCA school literally across the street from our school has about 12-18 students and he charges less than half what we do. Exception, young second degree opens a really nice location and teaches full time. Older ninth degree likes to "keep their hand in the arts" a few hours on Monday nights. Yeah, without a doubt, the part time ninth degree will have much, much more to offer. But hes also done his time over the last umpteen years. Am I saying part time instructors suck? Jeesh, hope not, Im a part time instructor with my bride running our school full time. Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:37:34 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] moo duk kwan emblem Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone use the moo duk kwan emblem for their uniform or school logo? The fist and laurel leaf emblem looks like it was claimed for trademark protection by the Soo Bahk Do guys as well as the words "Moo Duk Kwan". The style of Tae Kwon Do I was taught was referred to as Moo Duk Kwan. I've seen video on Youtube of Soo Bahk Do, thats different from what I was taught. The method at our old school looked more like Japanese karate with jump spinning kicks. Whats a guy to do? fred --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:12:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Overly Commercialized MA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think the fact of the matter is you're seeing my 2 replies 1) I don't like contracts at MA schools and 2)when instructs become focused solely on $$$ things get messed up; but you seem to be responding to point 1. Point 1 is my personal preference which is based on my point of view which can be viewed as an opinion, but point #2 is what should really be focused on since it deals with actual facts. Once again I must restate that I'm not saying all contracts are bad, I simply prefer to stay away from them. What I think is bad is a MA instructor (or any business owner) focusing solely on generating revenue because the product suffers.   Now as for your example, it is a very poor example in my opinion. You seem to overlook major points 1) motivation for teaching 2) prosocial behavior 3) altruism, etc. See the mistake you're making is assuming that more money equals dedication and the fact of the matter is it does not. Let's consider for a moment people who intentionally take pay cuts to do what they love simply because they love what they do. That simple fact nullifies your whole argument. Now a deeper look into what you're saying. A person who shovels crap for a living might make $5/hour....now supposed Bill Gates pays $50 hour for the same job of course the person will take the job because it's more money, BUT...this doesn't mean that individual will be more dedicated to shoveling the crap. It just means that they are more likely to show up to work on a consisent basis. It all boils down to the individual. Now think about this a little more in depth. If more money equalled more dedication for the work at hand then how do you explain people and corporations that make unbelieveable money producing piss poor quality products? By your logic they should be more dedicated to their jobs producing top notch products/services. I think everyone on this list can name 5 individuals that make a good living yet does piss poor work...lol.   Of course there are exceptions to the rule, you have some people who make minimum wage and do piss poor jobs as well, but to say that people who don't work full time, or volunteer aren't as dedicated as the full time works is not only unrealistic but down right disrespectful. I think of my friends who are volunteer firefighters, or in the army reserves when I read your thoughts on volunteers...and I just image the looks on their face if someone told them that they aren't as commited to the task at hand as a full time employee. Wouldn't it be something if your life or a loved one's life is saved by a volunteer working for pennies part time or for nothing?   Jye   --- On Fri, 5/22/09, Thomas Gordon wrote: Jye, Contracts protect the customer and the business if used correctly.  Our contract states how many days we will be open for training, holidays we’ll be closed for, how to get a refund if we’re closed for a certain period of time, ways to void the contract, NSF fee, etc. I also misspoke (okay, mistyped), everyone signs the contract regardless of doing EFT.  If they pay cash, we mark through the EFT form.  This allows us to have everything fully explained and in writing so both parties are fully informed.  To me, that sounds like it protects everyone. So about 80% of our students are on EFT drafting with 100% on contract. Back to your email, you keep giving the bad examples of contracts – and that can be done on either side of any argument. “You're assuming people who volunteer aren't commited to the task at hand, and they don't provide the same quality as a full time person.” As a rule, yes, that is what I am stating.  It’s simple math.  Assume I have identical twins with identical talents on the mat and identical abilities instructing.  They both have the exact same expenses and same size family.  Today, twin A gets a full time job working 40 hours a week plus 2.5 hours a day wrapped in getting ready for work, travel, and lunch but he still teaches 2 hours a night in the evenings at a local YMCA offering a one hour class for children and a one hour class for adults. In addition to the lunch time class, twin B teaches at his facility for five hours in evenings offering classes broken down by age and rank.  He spends the rest of his time reviewing martial art material, reading, and answering posts on Dojang Digest (okay....not really the last one.)  When there is additional training seminars close by, he doesn’t have to worry with asking for time off to go to seminars. Who gives the better service to their customer?  And in fairness, the twin teaching at YMCA probably charges $45 a month and twin B at the stand alone facility probably charges $125 a month.  The YMCA school literally across the street from our school has about 12-18 students and he charges less than half what we do. Exception, young second degree opens a really nice location and teaches full time.  Older ninth degree likes to "keep their hand in the arts" a few hours on Monday nights.  Yeah, without a doubt, the part time ninth degree will have much, much more to offer.  But he’s also done his time over the last umpteen years. Am I saying part time instructors suck?  Jeesh, hope not, I’m a part time instructor with my bride running our school full time. Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:31:33 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] USAT Poomsae Team Trials Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Poomsae Team Trials Announcement At this year's National Championships in Austin, Texas, there will be an additional qualifier for the Poomsae Team Trials on Thursday, July 2, with the top finishers advancing to the respective Poomsae Team Trials. The Adult and Masters Poomsae Team Trials are on Friday, July 3, and the Juniors Poomsae Team Trials will be held on Saturday, July 4. Please see the schedule at the USAT website for a complete rundown of the week's events. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:42:11 -0400 From: Scott To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "Closed door" students (was Re: Honorable vs Dishonorable) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> I know this is a common thread, or urban legend, frequently >> heard in >> the CMAs and in some cases the FMAs, but one wonders how >> true it is. >> It makes for an interesting story line, but the cases in >> which I have >> seen that claim made one usually finds something else >> actually occurred. >> >> Ray >> Actually it is just common sense. No one can pass on all the knowledge that they have acquired. Sure in modern arts we have a set list of techniques that everyone is required to learn to pass to their belt level. But is that all that a martial art is? How many us stop our training there? And as teachers do we really only teach those things that are on the syllabus? Or do we add in things from our own experience. I have to think of Dojunim Jye who added so many techniques to HKD. Is there anyone out there who thinks they have really learned all that he knows? Who here thinks that they have seen everything Master West has to offer? (Besides master West of course :-) I remember back when I was a tkd yellow belt, and watched dozens of kungfu movies every week. I made up a technique I called the Python Block, practiced it on my own and unveiled it at my testing. I was promptly reminded I was not of sufficient rank to be making up my own techniques. But that block is still in my repertoire and I later learned that it was very similar to some actual blocks used in Snake fist kung fu (which was in the movie that had inspired me.) and some HKD techniques. But it's not on the list of TKD or HKD techniques that I teach. Some nights in class went the master was away the senior students would teach techniques they labeled RoundEyeDo. All that kind of stuff is in MY martial art. It is not on any syllabus for HKD or TKD. And most of it will never get passed on to anyone that I teach. But it still is a part of what makes up my Martial art. So when I teach someone just the techniques for WTF TKD am I practicing a closed door policy? I had 6 different HKD instructors come and go while I was at the same school. Each one taught a different set of techniques. When I teach now I basically use the syllabus of one of those instructors. Leaving our many techniques from the others. Is that a "closed door" policy? I know that my master taught me more then others and less then some. Was that a "closed door" policy? No, he knew I had the desire and will to learn some things that the general classes didn't. So he showed me. There were others who learned more from him then I did. And I know that there were volumes of things he knew that he didn't teach to anyone. I know that I teach more to some students, who show a greater desire to learn then others. There are those who show up to class with the attitude I'm paying for X amount of training. So I give them X amount of training. Then there are those who show up and go the extra mile and twenty miles beyond that, just so that they can learn a little bit more. So do I teach them more then the ones just looking for their money's worth? You bet, and I don't charge them a dime for it. I think what we forget is that martial arts are a person journey, DJ Jye's is different then DJ Choi's, Mine is different then my master's. We put them under certain labels like TKD or HKD or Kung Fu or Wu Shu. But that is only so that they can be readily marketed to the public. I don't think it's possible for a teacher to pass on everything to his students. That would indicate that at some point the teacher stop learning. Scott HapKiDo - "The ultimate partner stretching exercise." --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:04:32 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] WC 2009 Ticket sale now open Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 2009 Copenhagen WTF World Taekwondo Championships - Official. The ticket sale for the World Taekwondo Championship 2009 from October 14th to the 18th is open. The championship takes place in the venue Ballerup Super Arena. We offer special tickets during the competitions days: One day tickets, Weekend tickets, partouttickets for all days. The special Opening Ceremony day tickets including the Opening Ceremony with live music, great shows and surprises. Every day at the WC 2009 we have finals in selected weight divisions. Prices: * One Day ticket (all days excl. Oct. 14th): 195 DKK (about 26 Euro) * Day ticket for the Opening day with Opening Ceremony (October 14th): 250 DKK (about 33 Euro) * Weekend ticket (October 16th to 18th): 500 DKK (about 66 Euro) * Partout pass ticket (from October 14th to 18th): 900 DKK (about 120 Euro) All seats are unnumbered and free seating applies. Tickets can be purchased at http://www.facebook.com/l/;http://www.billetnet.dk/html/browse.htmI?l=EN&cat=49&siteCat=2 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] moo duk kwan emblem Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:00:22 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yep, this came up back when the trademark and service mark were applied for. Few contacted the US Trademark Office to inform them of the facts, so here we are. Ray On May 22, 2009, at 7:37 AM, freddie bishop wrote: > Does anyone use the moo duk kwan emblem for their uniform or school > logo? The fist and laurel leaf emblem looks like it was claimed for > trademark protection by the Soo Bahk Do guys as well as the words > "Moo Duk Kwan". The style of Tae Kwon Do I was taught was referred > to as Moo Duk Kwan. I've seen video on Youtube of Soo Bahk Do, thats > different from what I was taught. The method at our old school > looked more like Japanese karate with jump spinning kicks. Whats a > guy to do? --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "Closed door" students (was Re: Honorable vs Dishonorable) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:53:31 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Doju Jye? I suspect you mean Doju Ji. You're describing something very different. The urban legend goes that as the Grandmaster, I will only teach the true art to one blessed closed door student. All others I will teach a different art, perhaps one that is completely ineffective. One story was that the art in question had to be taught with the right foot forward, yet the grandmaster taught it to all but one with the left foot forward (or vice versa). In another case as the Grandmaster got too old and ill to teach effectively in order to still get students in the door he proclaimed that all I taught before did not learn the true art, but now that I'm old and wise I'll start teaching the true art (that translates to now that I can't really teach anymore because it is difficult to stand, I'll continue to pull in students by telling them only they are getting the "real art"). What often happens is that after the Grandmaster dies the last student he had or some other student makes some claim like "I was the only one that he taught the complete art" or "I was at his house every night after everyone else went home and only then he really begin to teach" or "no one else was worthy to learn the true art except me" or "I paid him extra to teach me the hidden secrets of the art and no one else learned them". The claims go on and on and they are total BS, imho... Ray On May 22, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Scott wrote: > Actually it is just common sense. No one can pass on all the > knowledge that they have acquired. > Sure in modern arts we have a set list of techniques that everyone > is required to learn to pass to their belt level. But is that all > that a martial art is? > How many us stop our training there? And as teachers do we really > only teach those things that are on the syllabus? Or do we add in > things from our own experience. > > I have to think of Dojunim Jye who added so many techniques to HKD. > Is there anyone out there who thinks they have really learned all > that he knows? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:18:32 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Former S.Korean President Roh Moo Hyun (2003-2008) commits suicide Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://english.president.go.kr/president/past_presidents/past_9th.php Begin forwarded message: > Just heard the sad news that Roh Moo Hyon the ex-president committed > suicide. Engaged in a growing and complicated corruption schandal, > he couldn't bear the burden anymore and this morning he decided to > take his life. He jumped from a mountain while he was accompanied by > a bodyguard. His wife fainted after hearing the news. He left a note > to make a memorial near his hometown. Personally I believe that he > might not have known that his wife took about one million dollar but > he took the responsibility for it. > > Henny (Lee Hae Kang) --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest