Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:02:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #156 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: chiropractor (Julie Howard) 2. RE: Re: Martial arts an "ism"? (michael tomlinson) 3. RE: Tong Il and Chang Hon (Rick Clark) 4. Re: submission / ism (Brian Beach) 5. RE: Re: submission / ism (Thomas Gordon) 6. Tong Il and Chang Hon (Robert Martin) 7. Re: Tong-il (Dakin Burdick) 8. RE: Re: Tong-il (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Julie Howard" To: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:29:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: chiropractor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fred posted: Does any of you hapkido or judo practitioners need regular visits to the chiropractor to maintain back health? ********** Fred: I am a chiropractor and I'd say that everyone needs regular visits to the chiropractor to maintain health, period. :) Especially those who engage in martial arts such as Hapkido & judo. Chiropractic is not simply for back health. Chiropractic adjustments effect the nervous system, therefore, they effect the entire body's health and function. Having a chiropractor examine your nervous system for interference, efficiency, and function is key to overall health and wellness. If you are looking for a good chiropractor who is not simply a band-aide for back pain, let me know where you live and I can find a good chiropractor who is a nervous system doctor for you. Be well! Julie H. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial arts an "ism"? Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:34:27 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Gordon In a Martial Arts school I was teaching at a while back here in my part of Florida a certain family enrolled thier young son into the owners TKD classes...this family mind you own a huge company with commercials on TV all the time and are multi millionaires...anywho the owner told me that they came in after two weeks and said they were pulling their son out of his classes because after two weeks their 8 year old son was as unruly as ever and they thought they would be getting more for their money than this!!! I give the TKD instructor/owner a ton of credit, he kept his head even though they were very rude to him and told them no problem pulling him out but how did they expect him to raise their son in one and a half hours a day when they haven't had any success with him being with him for 8 straight years!! LOL..I couldn't believe they thought like that but true story....wow.. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Tong Il and Chang Hon Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 18:44:08 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bill, I would like to comment on your post and if you would, give it some consideration before you dismiss the points I would like to make. It may move your paper in a slightly different direction than you may expect or that of your instructor. First and foremost is I would like to define for yourself "What is TKD"? Is it a sport, martial art, martial sport, mental discipline, physical discipline, any combination of these and whatever you can come up with as well. Did Gen. Choi have a political motivation for his efforts n TKD? Think of his efforts with the North Koreans, his various trips to the North, the action of his son with the attempted assignation. What was his (and other Koreans) for separating the real history of modern TKD and the Karate of Okinawa and Japan? How did this impact the "story" of the various forms? Do you believe that the forms are something from the "old masters" or are they creations of the new generation? How much training did they have in other martial arts before they came up with the new forms? Rick Clark -----Original Message----- From: healthy inquiry [mailto:mcmillinhealth@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:36 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tong Il and Chang Hon I have a professor that is a 3rd dan ITF TKD (though I am unclear as to what branch). He assigned the topic of Tong Il for a fairly lengthy paper. I have exhausted all academic sources and most readily available TKD sources. You name was suggested as someone that would have information that others would not. Tong Il would not have been my first choice for a paper on Taekwon Do since it is in my distant future at the moment. It was assigned so I will give it my all. The information on this tul is limited (as it seems to be on most of the blackbelt tuls). I wish I had better information on everything after Chung Mu. I know the standard definition of Tong Il. Tong Il denotes the unification of Korea which has been divided into two. The diagram represents the homogenous race. I have the definition of why there is 24 forms. The Reason for 24 Patterns The life of a human being, perhaps 100 years, can be considered as a day when compared with eternity.Therefore, we mortals are no more than simple travelers who pass by the eternal years of an eon in a day. It is evident that no one can live more than a limited amount of time. Nevertheless, most people foolishly enslave themselves to materialism as if they could live for thousands of years. And some people strive to bequeath a good spiritual legacy for coming generations, in this way, gaining immortality. Obviously, the spirit is perpetual while material is not; therefore, what we can do to leave behind something for the welfare of mankind is, perhaps, the most important thing in our lives. Here I leave Taekwon-Do for mankind as a trace of man of the late 20th century. The 24 patterns represent 24 hours, one day, or all my life. The name of the pattern, the number of movements, and the diagrammatic symbol of each pattern symbolizes either heroic figures in Korean history or instances relating to historical events. General Choi, Hong Hi I have academic papers that I can use to support the concept of a unified Korea. I have non-TKD related information about the Korean homogenous race. I have been told that the certain moves have meaning such as: #1 = 1 Country #2 = Divided #3 Suddenly attacked #38 = Breaking the 38th Parallel. The different stamping moves denotes the frustration over the country being divided. I have been told by different GMs that Tong Il is: 1. The last form and to be considered the last form. or 2. Tong Il is the summation of all of one's TKD training. Several GMs and Masters have stated that by the time one reaches Tong Il that the importance is not the Taekwon but rather the Do. One should have the meanings of what TKD stands for and how one should live (be living?). The first of these puts Taekwon Do as a more physical with much more practicality. The second seems to be more of an ethical understanding of what Taekwon Do is (oh, my particular interests is ethics so I may have clouded thinking there but I have this whole idea about Aristotlean virtue ethics and Chang Hon Taekwon Do but I digress). Do you know anything that I might add? Did General Choi ever talk about Tong Il either from a practical point of view of how to perform it? or just about the ramifications of what it stood for? It Tong Il is indeed the totality of one's formal TKD training then is there anything you would add to this idea? or anything that General Choi talked about. I have access to most of the books (Master Mitchell's, Mr. Anslow's, the encyclopedia ...et. al.). If there is anything else that perhaps I should look into then let me know. I have to admit that I went through the forum at Kidokwan . I think at this point I am looking for anything that isn't in a book or article (though please let me know of any books or articles that you think I should read) but more of a personal reflection of Tong Il, Chang Hon, or General Choi (in reference to Tong Il or Chang Hon). Truth be told I would take any little of sliver of information at this point. I have an understanding of where this paper is going and I am down to the crunch of writing it. However this is just the beginning of my inquiry into this topic. I should be testing for my 2nd dan this summer so perhaps this inquiry will take the next 20 years as I work my way toward Tong Il. I hope you can find the time to respond. Sincerely Bill McMillin _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:18:06 -0400 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: submission / ism Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think that perhaps you are missing my point - To draw an analogy in another aspect of MAs - just as the young strong buck may not need MA for self defense ( he can get by more easily with his natural attributes) as much as a little old lady (learning the MAs will be of greater service to her) , the child that lacks discipline is the one that requires it the most. On your web site you tout your services as "• Teach goal setting, honesty, humbleness, indomitable spirit, integrity, and leadership • Teach mental discipline while incorporating responsibility. • Assist with learning respect while gaining self confidence, self control, self esteem, and socialization." If I had an unruly child your services seem to be just what I'd be looking for. It seems from my perspective that you are turning away children that might hamper your business rather than helping those that need it the most. On Jun 7, 2009, at 8:48 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.netwrote: > Thank you for the post. Apparently my post wasn't clear. The best example > is when this couple brought their child in that was literally running down the bench in our foyer and climbing on everything. The child was absolutely unruly. The mom asked the child if he wanted to do "karate" and he slowed down long enough to say "yeah" and then went on his best impression of Jungle Jim using our lobby for his jungle. Mom tells me that she just can't control him and "he NEEDS some discipline." Now I'm thinking I had the Red Fox "I'm coming home" look on my face by this point. Wow! I told them I didn't think we were right for them and referred them to another school. We aren't "most commercial schools" and when we see a child (or parent) that is incorrigible and disruptive to the other students, we invite them to leave. Typically this is about twice a year. The point of my post is, yes, we do teach more than just martial arts. And no, we aren't the parents - we're support role. Wayyyy behind the parents. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: submission / ism Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 00:00:01 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Beach, Thanks for visiting our website. In regards to your comment about the little old lady as compared to the young bucks, the little old lady wanting to learn martial arts is welcome in our school because she isn't disrupting the other students. And actually, the young bucks rarely make good students. Unruly child may or may not be welcome in our school. An unruly child needing direction is welcomed. An untrainable, unruly child is simply referred to another school in our area. If I allow feral children in the school, I'm cheating rest of the class. If I turn them away, I'm being mean to them and they NEED me. Heck, can't win. Let's not make this sound like we turn away 20 kids a month. We turn away about 2-3 families a year. We have children that can't pay, children that have been in trouble with the law or at school, and so forth. But we won't tolerate anyone coming into our school that is an obvious risk for our other students. It's not about business - it's about protecting our students from harmful or overly disruptive people. We'd be this way if our classes were free. We had a young man in our school that couldn't seem to stay out of trouble at school. He got suspended for flicking off a teacher. While out of school, I spent some time with him and took him to the gym with me. He wasn't a threat to our students, didn't disrupt our classes, and really needed a male figure to talk to. So I did what I could. Had I felt he was a serious determent to the school or students, I'd put him out fast..."before quick got ready." Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:39:13 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tong Il and Chang Hon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. McMillin, I am new to Tong-Il myself as I just tested for 6th Dan on May 17. There is a huge amount of Tong-Il information on the internet but probably of little use to you in the context of your paper. I am surprised that your professor would assign a paper on Tong-Il given his rank and your rank. Your right, it makes it hard. In any case IMHO you have the essence of Tong-Il down. That is unification -- unification of the Korean people and land for sure (a dream General Choi talked about every time I saw him). Also, unification of one self -- mind, body, and spirit. It is the last pattern learned by the ITF student; the one that leads to mastery of the art. As far as I know, General Choi never wrote down meanings to individual movements but like you I have seen the ones you've listed below. However, I think they may have been created by other people and not the General. The Do is a very important part of ITF Taekwon-Do. It is nice to see that the various ITF groups are starting to recognize that fact and stress it. Your journey to Tong-Il is started. I can't say how well your paper will be received. It is hard to judge what you instructor is looking for (he may not know himself) but I think you have a good start on it. Good luck, Robert Martin USTF-6-143 -- __--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 22:35:38 -0700 (PDT) From: healthy inquiry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tong Il and Chang Hon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net   I have a professor that is  a 3rd dan  ITF TKD (though I am unclear as to what branch).  He assigned the topic of Tong Il for a fairly lengthy paper.  I have exhausted all academic sources and most readily available TKD sources.    You name was suggested as someone that would have information that others would not. Tong Il would not have been my first choice for a paper on Taekwon Do since it is in my distant future at the moment.  It was assigned so I will give it my all.  The information on this tul is limited (as it seems to be on most of the blackbelt tuls).  I wish I had better information on everything after Chung Mu. I know the standard definition of Tong Il. Tong Il denotes the unification of Korea which has been divided into two. The diagram  represents the homogenous race. I have the definition of why there is 24 forms. The Reason for 24 Patterns The life of a human being, perhaps 100 years, can be considered as a day when compared with eternity.Therefore, we mortals are no more than simple travelers who pass by the eternal years of an eon in a day. It is evident that no one can live more than a limited amount of time. Nevertheless, most people foolishly enslave themselves to materialism as if they could live for thousands of years. And some people strive to bequeath a good spiritual legacy for coming generations, in this way, gaining immortality. Obviously, the spirit is perpetual while material is not; therefore, what we can do to leave behind something for the welfare of mankind is, perhaps, the most important thing in our lives. Here I leave Taekwon-Do for mankind as a trace of man of the late 20th century. The 24 patterns represent 24 hours, one day, or all my life. The name of the pattern, the number of movements, and the diagrammatic symbol of each pattern symbolizes either heroic figures in Korean history or instances relating to historical events. General Choi, Hong Hi I have academic papers that I can use to support the concept of a unified Korea.  I have non-TKD related information about the Korean homogenous race. I have been told that the certain moves have meaning such as: #1 = 1 Country #2 = Divided #3 Suddenly attacked #38 = Breaking the 38th Parallel. The different stamping moves denotes the frustration over the country being divided. I have been told by different GMs that Tong Il is: 1. The last form and to be considered the last form. or 2. Tong Il is the summation of all of one's TKD training. Several GMs and Masters  have stated that by the time one reaches Tong Il that the importance is not the Taekwon but rather the Do.  One should have the meanings of what TKD stands for and how one should live (be living?). The first of these puts Taekwon Do as a more physical with much more practicality. The second seems to be more of an ethical understanding of what Taekwon Do is (oh, my particular interests is ethics so I may have clouded thinking there  but I have this whole idea about Aristotlean virtue ethics and Chang Hon Taekwon Do but I digress). Do you know anything that I might add?  Did General Choi ever talk about Tong Il either from a practical point of view of how to perform it? or just about  the ramifications of what it stood for? It Tong Il is indeed the totality of one's formal TKD training then is there anything you would add to this idea? or anything that General Choi talked about.  I  have access to most of the books  (Master Mitchell's, Mr. Anslow's, the encyclopedia ...et. al.).  If there is anything else that perhaps I should look into then let me know.  I have to admit that I went through the forum at Kidokwan . I think at this point I am looking for anything that isn't in a book or article (though please let me know of any books or articles that you think I should read) but more of a personal reflection of Tong Il, Chang Hon, or General Choi (in reference to Tong Il  or Chang Hon). Truth be told I would take  any little of sliver of information at this point. I have an understanding of where this paper is going and I am down to the crunch of writing it.  However this is just the beginning of my inquiry into this topic.  I should be testing for my 2nd dan this summer so perhaps this inquiry will take the next  20 years as I work my way toward Tong Il.  I hope you can find the time to respond.       Sincerely       Bill McMillin -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 10871 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:13:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Dakin Burdick To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Tong-il Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bill McMillin asked for information about Tong-il. Well, you probably aren't going to like what I have to say about it, but here goes. I'm not going to get very far into the "homogeneous race" issue you mentioned. There really is only one race (the human one), but if someone actually buys into this issue of genetic purity, all sorts of horrors can develop.  I'll just point to Hitler and leave it at that. Tong-il is the idea that the two Koreas will reunify. It was included in Gen. Choi's first set of forms (Chang Hon) just as it is in the new Tuls. It is the final form, so it seems to have been Gen. Choi's ultimate goal. Gen. Choi, who founded the ITF and created the Tongil form, was born in North Korea before the division of Korea. At the end of his life, he began visiting the DPRK and teaching taekwondo there. He designed new forms that were based on DPRK propaganda (Juche, etc.). Upon Choi's death, the DPRK declared that his last words were to transfer leadership of the ITF to the DPRK. Jang Ung (first vice-chairman of the Physical Culture and Sports Guidance Commission of the DPRK) was made the new President of the ITF in 2002. (http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2002/200209/news09/23.htm) That was Choi's dream. The reality is unfortunately much more unpleasant. The model for Korean unification has largely been the unification of Germany in 1990. The reunification of the two Germanys was not an equal one. East Germany was a failure, and they basically gave up. East Germany was made into five new federal states that were absorbed by West Germany. Good for the German people, bad for East German leaders. Hupsu-Tungil (Unification by Absorption) is not something Jong-il Kim and other DRPK leaders want. The DPRK continues to push for reunification in its propaganda (http://nodutdol.org/index.php/enews/january_2009/article/3/ ), including sending the Tong-il demonstration team to the U.S. on a friendship tour ( http://www.ncnk.org/resources/newsletter-content-items/ncnk-newsletter-num ber-4-breaking-boards-and-eating-barbeque-june-2008/ ). The type of reunification it seeks is not realistic. Like East Germany, the DPRK is a failed state, so after seeing what happened to East Germany in 1990, it rapidly accelerated its nuclear program, both for an increase in energy and for military power. If you've ever seen the picture of Korea from space (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm), you'll know that the emphasis is on military power, not electrical!  Watch for more DPRK missiles heading for Japan. And if they can't reach Japan, they can still hit Seoul. The DPRK has already said, "Seoul is not far from here, if things go wrong, 'Seoul would become a sea of fire.'" So the DPRK leadership is not interested in absorption into the ROK. The people of North Korea apparently feel quite differently. There's a large black market interest in ROK culture in the DPRK. Gen. Choi's desire to return to the land of his birth burdened the ITF with a lot of problems. Choi replaced the form Ko-dang with Juche, named for the DPRK's isolationist policy. (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/juche.htm) DPRK intelligence officers infiltrated the ITF as early as the 1980s and ordered members to kill Pres. Doo-hwan Chun of the ROK. Gen. Choi's son, Jung-hwa Choi, even hired two agents to shoot Pres. Chun during his visit to Canada in 1982.  Jung-hwa was forced to flee the eastern Europe and then the DPRK. He returned to the ROK in 2008 after the statute of limitations ran out. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7605935.stm) Frankly, there's a lot of baggage tied to the ITF forms. I find it hard to understand why folks in the U.S. just don't make up their own forms in place of these. Has anyone suggested this to Chuck Sereff? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Tong-il Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:09:42 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dakin, From: Dakin Burdick [mailto:dakinburdick@yahoo.com] > Frankly, there's a lot of baggage tied to the ITF forms. It's not just the forms that has a lot of baggage, it would seem that the political (both martial and geopolitical) has a lot to be looked at. For that matter I don't think that the Kukkiwon is much better, but at least they have not put out "hits" on political figures - at least as far as I know. I have been involved in TKD since the 60's and the one thing that has always bugged the hell out of me is how controlling the Koreans try to be, and how they re-write history to fit their needs. There are many instructors (not Korean born) who have had more training and experience than the original heads of the various Kwan...... > I find it hard to understand why folks in the U.S. just don't make up their own forms in place > of these. Has anyone suggested this to Chuck Sereff? Politics...... > Yours in the arts, > Dakin Burdick Rick Clark --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest