Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:27:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #157 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. The Unruly (Brian Beach) 2. Fw: The Brabo Choke Back Take (Jye nigma) 3. New forms (was Re: Tong-il) (Christopher Spiller) 4. Re: The Unruly (Thomas Gordon) 5. Re: The Unruly (Brian Beach) 6. Hwa Rang Do in Phoenix (JENNIFER A LAWRENCE) 7. The Unruly (Gordon Okerstrom) 8. Re: The Unruly (Anthony Zahler) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:02:02 -0400 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Unruly Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas, I applaud your work with finger wielding, at risk youth. Old Lady / Young Buck is not about the quality of the student but rather what benefit they can receive by training. I think my original premise stands that the child that are in most need are passed along to become someone else's problem (because they fail a cost benefit analysis as a student). Which maybe part of unruly children's problems, they keep getting passed along. Not the only one, but contributing to the problem. "Unruly child may or may not be welcome in our school. An unruly child needing direction is welcomed. An untrainable, unruly child is simply referred to another school in our area." How exactly do you differentiate if you don't accept them in the school. You can eyeball kids and tell that they are untrainable. Do you have a super secrete trainability meter you wave over them? Most difficult cases take time in my experience. It still comes across as " those children that I deem not beneficial to my business model will be turned away" "It's not about business - it's about protecting our students from harmful or overly disruptive people. We'd be this way if our classes were free." I'm not sure how a child under your adult supervision would a serious threat to your other students. I can see disruptive. ( I have seen disruptive ) but thats the whole point - schools say that they teach discipline - if you are only teaching discipline to those that already have it - are you really teaching discipline? It comes across as hollow marketing speech. I hear - " I can fix what ain't broke - for a small fee of course" --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:27:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fw: The Brabo Choke Back Take Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In this video JT TORRES demonstrates "The Brabo Choke Back Take". http://backattacksecrets.com/backattackblog/?p=3 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:32:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] New forms (was Re: Tong-il) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin Burdik wrote: > Gen. Choi, who > founded the ITF and created the Tongil form, was born in > North Korea before > the division of Korea. At the end of his life, he > began visiting the DPRK and > teaching taekwondo there. He designed new > forms that were based on DPRK > propaganda (Juche, etc.). I think many people are aware that Juche was designed after Gen. Choi started training North Koreans in Taekwon-Do (they probably didn't like performing a pattern honoring Cho, Man Sik ;-) but I'd be interested in knowing what *other* forms the General designed which were "based on DPRK propaganda." I can't think of any, off hand. Do you have any specific ones in mind? Pax, Chris --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The Unruly From: "Thomas Gordon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Beach, (In reference to my comment about unruly children versus untrainable unruly children) “How exactly do you differentiate if you don't accept them in the school. You can eyeball kids and tell that they are untrainable. Do you have a super secrete trainability meter you wave over them? Most difficult cases take time in my experience. It still comes across as ‘those children that I deem not beneficial to my business model will be turned away’” In our location, we don’t get the inner city kids so we don’t have the “most difficult cases” needing “super secret trainability meter” as you alluded to with your somewhat humorous stab at sarcasm. Our typical “problem children” are NOT kids from broken homes that are selling drugs to help their mom make the rent. Our “problem children” are typically uncontrollable spoiled brats that have little to no parenting. I will openly tell anyone that 2-3 hours a week at our school will not fix what mommy and daddy have screwed up over the last 6-10 years. If the kid is going wild in our lobby and mom and/or dad seems to be oblivious or think it’s cute – then they are not a fit for our school. There are programs that specialize in such, and we aren’t one of them. You keep trying to make this about money – and it’s not. It’s about providing a service to our students and a safe environment for them to train in. If we chased the all mighty dollar, we’d have graduations instead of testings. If it were all about the money, we wouldn’t have “scholarship students” in our school with no one backing their dues. Our school just recently started paying us. On your next paragraph, you asked about a child being a threat to our other students. One quick example of a child we recently had to deal with. The kid was a natural and his father taught him at home as well. When he got high enough rank to spar at our school, he did fine until he got a few more belts under him. Then he would beat on the lower belts. He never injured them – just hurt a few. And trust me, when it’s your little one that gets hurt, it matters. We tried everything to discourage it. One day he caught a child really good and hurt them. My wife had just told him to ease up on the contact and as she walked away, she looked in the mirror and saw his face as he intentionally unloaded on the lower ranked student. He was told to take off his gear and step off the floor. That was his last class. That came down to safety. At some point, someone WAS going to get injured. The example of the wild in the lobby children applies in the same manner; do we REALLY want to put sparring gear on them so they can go crazy in the ring? Do we REALLY want to spend half our class chasing them down and trying to make them be still, be quiet, and learn? Again, there are programs for this and it may be hard for you to understand since you don't have a school. And again, we’re talking about 2-3 families a year – hardly an epidemic. Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:34:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The Unruly From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas, I'm not making this about money - You see MAs as a service industry and it colors your view of what is and isn't acceptable behavior based on a business model that seems to be working out for you. (as you are making money now) I happen to think that is a detrimental view of MAs. So, I tend to look at things differently. I just pointing out that the service that you are advertising as part of your services isn't available to all and you give the illusion of success by only choosing to cater to "acceptable" students. I don't mean to make this personal - it is the majority of commercial schools that offer "discipline and self control" as selling points. You just seem to be vocal on the side of commercial schools and offer examples to support you view point. As for you example of your aggressive student - I see a failure on your part to nip in the bud rather than a failure of the student or his parents. Perhaps pairing with someone that would give him a challenge and hit him back as hard as he hit would've have taught him about the use of control. But alas - he has failed your standards and was a threat to your service business so he must go. I think it came down to you controlling the situation and you took the easiest and the one that safeguarded your service business rather then what beneficial to that student and by extension the other students - he becomes a positive role model rather than a cautionary tale. Although I don't have a MA business - I have taught children. I know what a test of patience it can be. Again if you can't control the class I see it as the failure of the instructor not the kids. You are the one setting the tone - you are the one conveying the information, you are the one that is ultimately responsible. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Thomas Gordon < tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com> wrote: > Mr Beach, > > (In reference to my comment about unruly children versus untrainable > unruly children) “How exactly do you differentiate if you don't accept > them in the school. You can eyeball kids and tell that they are > untrainable. Do you have a super secrete trainability meter you wave over > them? Most difficult cases take time in my experience. It still comes > across as ‘those children that I deem not beneficial to my business model > will be turned away’” > > In our location, we don’t get the inner city kids so we don’t have the > “most difficult cases” needing “super secret trainability meter” as you > alluded to with your somewhat humorous stab at sarcasm. Our typical > “problem children” are NOT kids from broken homes that are selling drugs > to help their mom make the rent. Our “problem children” are typically > uncontrollable spoiled brats that have little to no parenting. I will > openly tell anyone that 2-3 hours a week at our school will not fix what > mommy and daddy have screwed up over the last 6-10 years. If the kid is > going wild in our lobby and mom and/or dad seems to be oblivious or think > it’s cute – then they are not a fit for our school. There are programs > that specialize in such, and we aren’t one of them. > > You keep trying to make this about money – and it’s not. It’s about > providing a service to our students and a safe environment for them to > train in. If we chased the all mighty dollar, we’d have graduations > instead of testings. If it were all about the money, we wouldn’t have > “scholarship students” in our school with no one backing their dues. Our > school just recently started paying us. > > On your next paragraph, you asked about a child being a threat to our > other students. One quick example of a child we recently had to deal > with. The kid was a natural and his father taught him at home as well. > When he got high enough rank to spar at our school, he did fine until he > got a few more belts under him. Then he would beat on the lower belts. > He never injured them – just hurt a few. And trust me, when it’s your > little one that gets hurt, it matters. We tried everything to discourage > it. One day he caught a child really good and hurt them. My wife had > just told him to ease up on the contact and as she walked away, she looked > in the mirror and saw his face as he intentionally unloaded on the lower > ranked student. He was told to take off his gear and step off the floor. > That was his last class. > > That came down to safety. At some point, someone WAS going to get > injured. The example of the wild in the lobby children applies in the > same manner; do we REALLY want to put sparring gear on them so they can go > crazy in the ring? Do we REALLY want to spend half our class chasing them > down and trying to make them be still, be quiet, and learn? Again, there > are programs for this and it may be hard for you to understand since you > don't have a school. > > And again, we’re talking about 2-3 families a year – hardly an epidemic. > > Thomas Gordon > Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 > www.GordonMartialArts.com/april > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "JENNIFER A LAWRENCE" <5baron55@msn.com> To: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:46:31 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwa Rang Do in Phoenix Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fred Bishop mentioned watching Hwa Rang Do classes in Phoenix, in the early 90s. Kwan Jang Nim Tim Elliott has operated schools in the Phoenix area since 1982, or thereabouts. I train at his dojang, and Mr. Bishop is correct: he is a great teacher, in a great style. I'm approaching my 37th year in the martial arts, primarily variants of Kenpo or Okinawan styles. I've only had the pleasure of training with KJN Elliott for a couple of years, but I'm continually amazed at how thorough Hwa Rang Do is. I feel like a five year old in a candy store. Hwarang! Mark Lawrence Phoenix Hwa Rang Do --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gordon Okerstrom" To: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Unruly Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Beach, In your paragraph to Master Gordon regarding the aggressive student, please substitute the word "student" or "student population" in the place of "service business" and re-read it to see Master Gordon's perspective. It's not the business, (the building to train in) allthough that is necessary to continue to pass on the knowledge, but rather the safety of his other students and the continuation of their training. Also, re-read Master Gordon's post regarding the aggressive student and the infered history of instruction to the correct the behavior: "We tried everything to discourage the behavior." Then, an act of direct disobedience immediately after being reminded. This is the deliberate act of a menace. This is why we have laws in our society and jails to keep the menaces out of society. Master Gordon was removing a manace to HIS society, his other students for whom he is also responsible. Also, please understand that these students are not sitting in desks. They are all standing and practicing the demonstrated technique on each other so. These students are not learning flower arranging. They are learning a martial art. They have to sucessfully interact with each other so as not to harm their fellow students. There has to be a level of maturity and an understanding that what they are learning can harm another. So, there are rules that must be followed. Think of it like a firing range. If one of the students decides that the instructor's words are not to be followed and they start firing their weapon, when they want, in any direction they want, how long before another student is injured or killed? I tell my beginner student class at least once a week: "Martial Arts is like your secret weapon. You keep it inside you as your secret and you only take it out when you need to protect yourself, your family or your country. It's not for taking things by force, proving a point, showing off or to assert your dominance over another. If I find out that you are misusung the knowledge given here, you will be kicked out of the school immediately." The TENANTS and the OATH must become part of the student's character or we meerly train the killers of tomorrow. Gordon Okerstrom --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:12:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The Unruly From: Anthony Zahler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brian, I am speaking as an instructor, teacher and student. Each school has its standards, and these are set by the owner, instructors and patrons of that school. Not all kids can learn from all instructors, as well as not all instructors can teach all kids. What I took away from Master Gordan's reply was he is not their substitute parent. There are some people who want a MA school to clean up their issues and will blame everyone else for their personal failures. When you interview a potential student, I am evaluating if I or my school can be of use to them and if they will work in our system, as much as they are evaluating me and my school. This does not always work out. I have trained in schools that mistakenly think that their way will work for everyone if you stick it out long enough. The truth is sadly the opposite. As teachers and more importantly, Martial artists we have a duty to know our strengths and weaknesses and how to work with them both. There are students I have turned away because of attitude, parental behavior, different expectations of goals... I had to explain to the owner's of all three schools why I made my decisions and lucky for me, we were on the same page. Keeping personal ideals out of it, there are some combinations of students and instructors that don't work. Sometimes it is the potential student(or their parents) who are the reason. With that said, I want to touch on one of the other things that you stated "I think it came down to you controlling the situation and you took the easiest and the one that safeguarded your service business rather then what beneficial to that student and by extension the other students - he becomes a positive role model rather than a cautionary tale." He did the opposite of what you assume, turned down a paying membership. Chose to follow his ideals and code instead of go after the money. He is SUPPOSED to control the situation and sometimes that means saying no. I have taken and will continue to take students that need special attention, but only those that I am willing AND able to deal with as students. Platitudes like, "there are no bad kids, just bad teachers" seem to have given kids free reign to act up and it must be the instructors fault, not the child's or the parent. I wholehartedly disagree. Parents are responsible for choosing to NOT disciplining their kids, kids are responsible for their actions(less so than adults but responsible nonetheless). Its what we teach, so shouldn't it be how we run our lives...our businesses? I believe that we can augment, support and reinforce but not take the place of personal accountability or parental responsibility. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Brian Beach wrote: > Thomas, > > > I'm not making this about money - You see MAs as a service industry and it > colors your view of what is and isn't acceptable behavior based on a > business model that seems to be working out for you. (as you are making > money now) I happen to think that is a detrimental view of MAs. So, I tend > to look at things differently. > > > I just pointing out that the service that you are advertising as part of > your services isn't available to all and you give the illusion of success > by > only choosing to cater to "acceptable" students. I don't mean to make this > personal - it is the majority of commercial schools that offer "discipline > and self control" as selling points. You just seem to be vocal on the side > of commercial schools and offer examples to support you view point. > > > As for you example of your aggressive student - I see a failure on your > part > to nip in the bud rather than a failure of the student or his parents. > Perhaps pairing with someone that would give him a challenge and hit him > back as hard as he hit would've have taught him about the use of control. > But alas - he has failed your standards and was a threat to your service > business so he must go. I think it came down to you controlling the > situation and you took the easiest and the one that safeguarded your > service > business rather then what beneficial to that student and by extension the > other students - he becomes a positive role model rather than a cautionary > tale. > > > Although I don't have a MA business - I have taught children. I know what a > test of patience it can be. Again if you can't control the class I see it > as > the failure of the instructor not the kids. You are the one setting the > tone > - you are the one conveying the information, you are the one that is > ultimately responsible. > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Thomas Gordon < > tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com> wrote: > > > Mr Beach, > > > > (In reference to my comment about unruly children versus untrainable > > unruly children) “How exactly do you differentiate if you don't accept > > them in the school. You can eyeball kids and tell that they are > > untrainable. Do you have a super secrete trainability meter you wave over > > them? Most difficult cases take time in my experience. It still comes > > across as ‘those children that I deem not beneficial to my business model > > will be turned away’” > > > > In our location, we don’t get the inner city kids so we don’t have the > > “most difficult cases” needing “super secret trainability meter” as you > > alluded to with your somewhat humorous stab at sarcasm. Our typical > > “problem children” are NOT kids from broken homes that are selling drugs > > to help their mom make the rent. Our “problem children” are typically > > uncontrollable spoiled brats that have little to no parenting. I will > > openly tell anyone that 2-3 hours a week at our school will not fix what > > mommy and daddy have screwed up over the last 6-10 years. If the kid is > > going wild in our lobby and mom and/or dad seems to be oblivious or think > > it’s cute – then they are not a fit for our school. There are programs > > that specialize in such, and we aren’t one of them. > > > > You keep trying to make this about money – and it’s not. It’s about > > providing a service to our students and a safe environment for them to > > train in. If we chased the all mighty dollar, we’d have graduations > > instead of testings. If it were all about the money, we wouldn’t have > > “scholarship students” in our school with no one backing their dues. Our > > school just recently started paying us. > > > > On your next paragraph, you asked about a child being a threat to our > > other students. One quick example of a child we recently had to deal > > with. The kid was a natural and his father taught him at home as well. > > When he got high enough rank to spar at our school, he did fine until he > > got a few more belts under him. Then he would beat on the lower belts. > > He never injured them – just hurt a few. And trust me, when it’s your > > little one that gets hurt, it matters. We tried everything to discourage > > it. One day he caught a child really good and hurt them. My wife had > > just told him to ease up on the contact and as she walked away, she > looked > > in the mirror and saw his face as he intentionally unloaded on the lower > > ranked student. He was told to take off his gear and step off the floor. > > That was his last class. > > > > That came down to safety. At some point, someone WAS going to get > > injured. The example of the wild in the lobby children applies in the > > same manner; do we REALLY want to put sparring gear on them so they can > go > > crazy in the ring? Do we REALLY want to spend half our class chasing > them > > down and trying to make them be still, be quiet, and learn? Again, there > > are programs for this and it may be hard for you to understand since you > > don't have a school. > > > > And again, we’re talking about 2-3 families a year – hardly an epidemic. > > > > Thomas Gordon > > Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 > > www.GordonMartialArts.com/april > > _______________________________________________ > > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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