Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:36:00 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #158 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: The Unruly... (Bert Edens) 2. Re: unruly (Brian Beach) 3. Re: dan bong (bruce f) 4. Re: Re: unruly (Anthony Zahler) 5. Fwd: RASKB Transactions (Ray) 6. Bad Apples (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Re: Bad Apples (Brian Beach) 8. kid in the candy store (freddie bishop) 9. Poomsae Championships (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Bert Edens To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:22:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: The Unruly... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, all... To chip in briefly here, as I agree with Master Gordon's perspective (we have turned away or asked students to leave for reasons that made them a danger to others or themselves). If you had a student who applied to your school but was only two or three years old and not emotionally or physically ready to get any benefit from martial arts, would you accept them anyway? Whether it be because of developmental age or behavioral age (due to how they were reared by Mom and Dad), if a student is simply not ready, they are not ready. *bows* - Bert Edens, II Dan TKD --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:38:12 -0400 From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: unruly Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gordon, "We tried everything to discourage the behavior " - except remove him from a situation where he was in a position to beat up on lower belts. The offending student was fed more lower belts. Until he actually hurt one. So I disagree that they did "everything". Removing someone from society is usually a last resort. I have used the example that I sited - It worked. Some people have to shown, not told. It wasn't malicious just a gentle reminder that there is still things to learn and there is always someone "badder" so be humble and respectful with your training partners. We are all here to learn. I agree that there must be order - order comes from discipline and self control. A service that Thomas provides through his service business. That was the point of the thread that if one says you are provide a service . -i.e. "Self control" one should be able to provide that service, not just the illusion. Anthony, I think I covered the first part of your response in my response to Gordon. I don't think that this about becoming a substitute parent. It's about offering a service and weather or not that service is delivered. As for being the opposite - I disagree. From a business perspective he was sacrificing the short term loss (one tuition) to safeguard against the possibility of a larger loss ( i.e. other students leaving in mass because of the one or the perception of being a "dangerous" school discouraging new sign ups ) I don't think that a parent that has no interest in correcting their child's behavior would even show up a MA school. Schools advertise themselves as tool for the goal that they are trying to achieve - discipline and self control. If you advertise that you can fix brakes and I show up looking to get my brakes fixed are you going to call me a irresponsible car owner and send me on my way? I am looking to get the service that you advertise that you provide. If you wish to speak about accountability maybe you could speak to that. Bert, I don't that example is germane to the discussion. Toddlers are pre-rational and I don't any MA would be age appropriate. What is age appropriate in the MAs is another discussion. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:21:47 -0700 (PDT) From: bruce f Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] dan bong To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You are correct Jeff, I misread stick not a knife.  You are also correct on the type of stick, if it looks like a yawara or kubaton it is inherently a weapon (steel balls on the ends etc.).  If it is a piece of oak dowel rod, its a piece of wood.  Both can be used effectively as a weapon, the yawara can be viewed in some states as a bludgeoned, the oak stick would not.   ________________________________ From: jeff kiral To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:10:13 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] dan bong A dan bong is a short stick, not a knife. For a short stick to be a "weapon", you would have to prove that the stick was or is being kept for that purpose, regardless of your state or local law. If you use a screwdriver to assault someone, then the screwdriver was a weapon at the time. If the screwdriver is in your pocket, in a tool box, or on your front seat, is it a weapon? Best Regards, Jeff Kiral Applications Engineer Pacific Fuel Cell office: (440)951-5155 cell: (440)856-5879     _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:38:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: unruly From: Anthony Zahler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brian, I went to his site, read his advertising, he offers to "assist" this means work with not replace. If the parent or parents do not reinforce the lessons, not matter how good or great an instructor is, it will not be successful, period. Wishful thinking and high ideals cannot fix a toxic parent/child relationship. Using your logic, if you refused an abusive student, he is sacrificing the short term money of the new member for the long term of not having his students hurt or abused. There are targeted programs for these types, at OTHER schools. If he chooses not to have one is he a traitor to martial arts? Really? Finally, just because the fed up or at the end of their rope parent took the first step to reach out for help, does not mean anyone HAS to take on the burden they could not or would not deal with themselves. Just because some schools carelessly advertise that they will instill self-control or self-discipline does not make all schools hypocritical if they choose not to accept an unruly child. And really, comparing a child to brakes? Maybe compare it to a Psychologist or tutor or therapist. When you can show me a good character or self-control part I can service on a child, I will take your analogy to heart. Right now it sounds to me like you have an ax to grind but no where on his website does he promise or imply he provides the service of giving discipline or self-control. ================================================================ On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Brian Beach wrote: > Anthony, > > I think I covered the first part of your response in my response to Gordon. > I don't think that this about becoming a substitute parent. It's about > offering a service and weather or not that service is delivered. > > As for being the opposite - I disagree. From a business perspective he > was > sacrificing the short term loss (one tuition) to safeguard against the > possibility of a larger loss ( i.e. other students leaving in mass because > of the one or the perception of being a "dangerous" school discouraging new > sign ups ) > > I don't think that a parent that has no interest in correcting their > child's > behavior would even show up a MA school. Schools advertise themselves as > tool for the goal that they are trying to achieve - discipline and self > control. > > > If you advertise that you can fix brakes and I show up looking to get my > brakes fixed are you going to call me a irresponsible car owner and send me > on my way? I am looking to get the service that you advertise that you > provide. If you wish to speak about accountability maybe you could speak to > that. > > > Bert, > > > I don't that example is germane to the discussion. Toddlers are > pre-rational > and I don't any MA would be age appropriate. What is age appropriate in the > MAs is another discussion. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 05:56:19 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fwd: RASKB Transactions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Begin forwarded message: From: Brother Anthony Date: June 9, 2009 4:22:50 AM PDT The Royal Asiatic Society Korea Branch is proud to announce the publication of Volume 83 of its journal Transactions, dated 2008, (Volume 1 was published in 1900). The Table of Contents is as follows: The Inquiring Literatus: Yi Sugwang’s “Brush-Talks” with Ph?ng Kh?c Khoan in Beijing in 1598, by William F. Pore An Expedition to Korea to Rescue the Crew of The Narwal in April 1851, by Robert Neff Yi Toegye, John Calvin, and the Love of Learning in Korea, by Daniel J. Adams History and Justice: Approaches to the Dokdo Issues, by Kim Yongdeok Squirrels of Lone Tree Mountain, poems by Jeremy Seligson Beneath our Feet: Geology and Landscape of Seoul, by Rodney Grapes and Gyeong-Nan Jeong The volume also contains the President's annual report, lists of lectures and tours, lists of members and a list of the books published by the RASKB. The articles will be added to the Cumulative Indexes in the coming days. These indexes are temporarily lodged in my home page, until the RASKB home page is redesigned, at http://hompi.sogang.ac.kr/anthony/Transactions.htm Copies of Transactions are mailed free to all members of the RASKB. Copies may be purchased by non-members for Won 15,000. A small number of libraries are also members and so receive the journal automatically. I should point out that bound volumes of Transactions from the beginning until now are available for purchase (5 issues bound in each volume) from the RASKB office, (see http:// www.raskb.com/ click 'Other Publication' and then 'Transactions'). Some libraries have purchased the set as published in 1970 or in 1985 but have not continued to update the series, I believe . . . Brother Anthony Sogang University, Seoul Chair, Publications Committee, RASKB http://hompi.sogang.ac.kr/anthony/ --__--__-- Message: 6 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:45:14 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bad Apples Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brian writes: <<"Unruly child may or may not be welcome in our school. An unruly child needing direction is welcomed. An untrainable, unruly child is simply referred to another school in our area." How exactly do you differentiate if you don't accept them in the school. You can eyeball kids and tell that they are untrainable. Do you have a super secrete trainability meter you wave over them? Most difficult cases take time in my experience. It still comes across as " those children that I deem not beneficial to my business model will be turned away" "It's not about business - it's about protecting our students from harmful or overly disruptive people. We'd be this way if our classes were free." I'm not sure how a child under your adult supervision would a serious threat to your other students. I can see disruptive. ( I have seen disruptive ) but thats the whole point - schools say that they teach discipline - if you are only teaching discipline to those that already have it - are you really teaching discipline? It comes across as hollow marketing speech. I hear - " I can fix what ain't broke - for a small fee of course" >> I have read with keen interest the various ideas on teaching children or turning them away. We teach martial arts, and to some degree most school will enhance their teaching with some form of life skill training (life skills in a very broad sense of the word). This is not a new idea, as for as long as I have trained (58 years to date), martial art training included some form of teaching respect. To me, this simple part of martial art is as important a life skill as you can get. Indeed, people have lost their lives by disrespecting others. This particular message discusses training unruly children or sending same away to the next school, and I must side with Thomas on this. We primarily teach martial arts, and we are NOT in the business of rehabilitation of juvenile delinquents. Like Thomas, when I see a child who is more than I can handle (or pass of to one of my Instructors), I would not hesitate to send the kid down the road. This has nothing to do with hollow marketing, this has everything to do with being equipped to do the right job (or not). I freely admit that I DO advertise teaching discipline as I DO have that as part of the way I run my school. I am neither ashamed of telling the world this, nor am I telling an untruth. I taught discipline in my school since day one, just as I LEARNED discipline in all of the schools I attended. Furthermore, I have done this waaaayyyyy BEFORE discipline became a fashionable marketing ploy. I am not sure where you folks trained; but if discipline and good manners (both solid life skills) was not taught in the schools you attended, you was robbed. Now to the specifics of your post. "How exactly do you differentiate if you don't accept them in the school. You can eyeball kids and tell that they are untrainable." You bet I can... I use the common sense that I have gathered over the years of training, just as I would instantly size up a dangerous situation on the street. If you have not got that by the time you earn the right to teach, you have been lucky to survive. Have I made mistakes? Probably so, but I err on the safe side. "I'm not sure how a child under your adult supervision would a serious threat to your other students." As a martial artist, we have no doubt witnessed or experienced first hand that things can (and sometimes DO) go wrong in the blink of an eye. Again, if by now you have NOT witnessed that (or better yet... experienced it), you have led a sheltered life. My job as a teacher is to foresee troubles and fix them before they become a liability. I have not got the ability to control everything in a class situation. Perhaps in a private lesson, but in a group situation... no way... not with a loose canon running around. "if you are only teaching discipline to those that already have it - are you really teaching discipline?" Perhaps I am old fashioned, but to tell you the truth I have not seen many kids who HAVE discipline. I have seen a LOT of kids who are good kids that can benefit from our lessons even though they have little or no discipline at the moment, and THOSE are the kids we keep. The bad apples I leave for the folks who run Juvy centers... THEY are equipped to handle these sort of kids, THEY have the highly specialized skills and training these kids need. For me to take them on and pretend I can fix what is already broke is not only shameful, it is downright ludicrous and a danger to the keepers in my school. People like Michael, who teaches in the public school system, do not have the luxury to refuse these type of kids, but I am sure that even he would soon find a way to get these kids the type of training they really need. Me, as a non profit school owner, I DO have that luxury. Indeed, I have that responsibility! Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:05:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bad Apples From: Brian Beach To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy, I appreciate your input. From your response I guess that I'm not making myself clear. Let me try this tack - Any activity for children from baseball to arts and crafts can and do teach life skills especially when done with Adult supervision and guidance. Somethings like team sports teach teamwork ( another valuable life skill) better than MAs. My point is commercial Martial Arts schools go out of their way to market MAs as a way of teaching discipline, self control, better grades etc. If one advertises this service - I think one should be expected to provide that service. Yet here we get the "insider" view that some kids are too much a pain in the behind to be worth the tuition. Let them be someone else's problem. This discussion started as lambasting parents for expecting MA teachers to be substitute parents for their "bratty / unruly " kids. Truly at risk kids are a different ball game - it's not where this discussion started nor it's focus. It does factor into it. We can discuss it. I don't think MAs are an appropriate place to rehabilitate the truly damaged but rather a place to build. As the saying goes "It is easier to build a boy than to fix a man" I think you and I may be discussing different "children" - you seem to have in your head a punk "kid" - a high school aged petty criminal. I think Thomas had a much younger child in mind when he made his first comments. i.e. using his lobby as a jungle gym. So writing off a small child rather than a young adult is different in my mind. To assume a young child is too far gone at a passing glance seems callous and not a valid assessment in my mind. I think that writing of a young adult is a bit callous as well but again a different scenario. You and others have advocated passing these students along to the next school to your ultimate conclusion Juvy Hall and by extension I guess maybe prison. I've never indicated that MAs have represented themselves as therapists but rather providing a service. That service being "life skills" specifically discipline and self control. To simply NIMBY these kids doesn't seem consistent with the tenets we espouse nor in line with the "services" advertised. I agree that safety is a concern in any martial arts class. I have seen and been at the bad end of "beginner exuberance." ( took surgery about a year of recovery) So I am aware of the dangers that are inherent to MA training. That's why I said under "adult supervision" - as the instructor one must instill "mutual benefit" and safety and be able to nip it in the bud when it strays. You also must stress proper ukemi and protection methods. Also especially with children if they feel in danger with a training partner to disengage and seek out the instructor who can make the judgment.- if its a case of MA training is uncomfortable and we learn to overcome it or their partner is being irresponsible. If there are too many people in class to watch - have more smaller class, get another instructor etc. This could lead to other discussions of what is age appropriate to teach children, teacher student ratios etc. I respect your accomplishments and what you have given the arts. Maybe your capacity for patience with undirected youthful energy has diminished over the years. It does take a lot of you. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:18:20 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] kid in the candy store Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Miss Lawrence I felt like a kid in a candy store too. Hwarang Do seemed to have just about anything martial arts related. I have read about Master Joo Bang Lee since the early '80's. Mr. Elliot let me watch a video of a demonstration by Master Lee, that really set me on fire for Hwarang Do, unfortunately, I was unable to relocate to Arizona from Indiana. If I would have moved to Arizona, we'd be talking face to face because I'm sure I'd still be there learning and growing in the martial arts. Sincerely Fred --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:11:26 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Poomsae Championships Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Egypt to Host 4th WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships 9 Jun 2009 Egypt will host the 4th WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships in Cairo on Nov. 27-29, 2009. The decision was made at the WTF Council meeting in Baku, Azerbaijan on June 9, 2009. The Council meeting took place at the Hyatt Conference Center in Baku one day before the 1st WTF World Para- Taekwondo Championships. The inaugural Para-Taekwondo Championships are to immediately followed by the 2009 WTF World Cup Taekwondo Team Championships on June 11-14 at the Baku Sports Hall. Egypt was the only candidate for the 4th annual World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships. At the WTF Council meeting, the participants approved the Timor Leste Taekwondo Federation as a provisional member of the WTF. Dr. Lucas Da Costa serves as the first president of the Timor Leste Taekwondo Federation, with Mr. Jorge Amaral De Fatima as secretary general. Timor Leste became the WTF's 189th member association. To be a full member, the Timor Leste Taekwondo Federation requires the approval of the next WTF General Assembly scheduled for October in Copenhagen, Denmark. The Council members were briefed on the voting results of the proposed amendments to the WTF Rules and Regulations and the WTF Competition Rules, followed by a report and recommendation of the chairman of the WTF Legislative Committee. There was a report on the activities of the ad-hoc WTF Electronic Protector Committee by the Committee chairman, Mr. Ivan Dibos of Peru. The members received a progress report by the Organizing Committee of the 2009 WTF World Taekwondo Championships and a presentation on newly developed poomsae. During the Council meeting, WTF President Chungwon Choue delivered a letter of designation to Mr. Kamaladdin Heydarov, vice president of the WTF and president of the Azerbaijan Taekwondo Federation, designating the Musado Gym in Baku as the WTF's regional taekwondo training center. In his speech during the WTF Council meeting, WTF President Choue said, "We have been working hard together to create a new image of taekwondo as an Olympic sport and the World Taekwondo Federation as an International Sport Federation befitting the global standards." "Our commitment has brought significant achievements. From globalization of taekwondo to more dynamic and transparent taekwondo competitions, we certainly have seen a remarkable progress," Dr. Choue said. He said, "To make taekwondo exciting, we introduced the media-friendly ranking system together with various international competitions including the World Poomsae Championships, professional taekwondo competitions, and the very first Para-Taekwondo competition here in Azerbaijan." "Our effort to include taekwondo, poomsae in particular, in major international sporting events has a bright prospect," Dr. Choue said. "The International Paralympic Committee President Sir Phil Craven recognized the WTF efforts and advised us organization of at least two World Para-Taekwondo Championships with the participation of more than 25 countries from at least three continents prior to be staged at the 2016 Paralympic Games." WTF President Choue continued to say, "FISU also acknowledged the popularity of taekwondo throughout the world, and decided to include poomsae in the official program of the 2009 Summer Universiade in Belgrade, Serbia, while six sports, including karate, were removed from the program. "Poomsae also secured its place in the program of the 2013 Universiade in Madrid. This accomplishment owes much to the dedicated service and hard work of Dr. Ken Min." "Aiming at taekwondo's including in the 2013 Mediterranean Games in Greece, we have now created the Mediterranean Taekwondo Union with Mr. El-Hilali as the president," he said. "For fairer taekwondo competitions, WTF enhanced training of referees and coaches, introduced an instant video replay system, and reassigned the ad-hoc WTF Electronic Protector Committee led by Mr. Ivan Dibos to review and improve the aptitude of the electronic protector system," Dr. Choue said. He said, "Our effort stretches to take taekwondo beyond a mere sport, and to contribute to world peace and education of the future generation.""Firstly, we wish to expand the WTF solidarity program. Together with the unclaimed reform funds, we plan to use the overall funds for technical and administrative enhancement of WTF member national associations and encouraging participation to the 2009 World Taekwondo Championships in Denmark. Detailed plan and guidelines will be notified before the Copenhagen World Championships." "The Taekwondo Peace Corps has now seen the successful completion of the second dispatch to eight countries. Overall, 2008 summer and winter Taekwondo Peace Corps dispatched 60 members to 13 countries," he said. "The project has met with great enthusiasm by volunteers, participants, and WTF member national associations." "WTF is also engaged in some upcoming projects for youth. The World Taekwondo Youth Camp is to take place between Aug. 6 and 11 in Muju and Seoul, featuring the OVEP (Olympic Values Education Program) forum," Dr. Choue said. "This project is designed to provide high- level taekwondo training and education of Olympic values and taekwondo spirit to young taekwondo practitioners worldwide. It also features friendly junior taekwondo competition in preparation for the 2010 Singapore Youth Olympic Games." WTF President Choue said, "IOC President Jacques Rogge showed much interest and support for the project, which features grass-root Olympic Values Education Program through taekwondo and education of the Youth Olympic Games. He will give a video greeting message during the opening ceremony." "I also urge WTF member national associations to utilize this camp as an opportunity to further develop the standard of their young taekwondo athletes and give them a chance to be inspired with friendship and to learn the Olympic values," he said. "Additionally, I am proud to announce that the World Taekwondo Academy ground-breaking ceremony will take place on Taekwondo Day, the 4th of September, 2009 in Muju, Korea." He concluded his speech by saying, "It has been some four years since we placed forward our goals to make taekwondo a truly global sport. I wish to share my pride and confidence with you to assure you that we are making taekwondo history and you are part of that history." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest