Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:48:22 +0200 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #159 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Bad Apples (michael tomlinson) 2. Re: Unruly (zisheged@aol.com) 3. More bad apples (Rudy Timmerman) 4. RE: Re: unruly (Thomas Gordon) 5. RE: Re: unruly (mdealba@comcast.net) 6. Special Knife Fighting - CQC Seminar in July (mdealba@comcast.net) 7. Re: Special Knife Fighting - CQC Seminar in July (James O'Connor) 8. Re: RE: chiropractor (Anthony) 9. Unruly apples (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: michael tomlinson To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bad Apples Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:42:59 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy writes: People like Michael, who teaches in the public school system, do not have the luxury to refuse these type of kids, but I am sure that even he would soon find a way to get these kids the type of training they really need. Me, as a non profit school owner, I DO have that luxury. Indeed, I have that responsibility! Rudy Rudy this is very true....when I'm "uhh stuck" with one of these students I try to get into their head and find some kind of common bond with them whether it be a sports team, music, or even the fact that my relatives are in prison just like some of theirs...once I can click with them I can try to start steering them into a different direction...sometimes it works..sometimes they just don't want help.. not a whole lot you can do then...but at least I tried. .I tell them I will help them all I can but THEY have to do the work..not me.. .and I will not accept or tolerate personal disrespect to me or them disrupting the learning of any other students.. of course I say it waayyyy different then I am saying it on here..but it is in their language that they can understand...I've found that today kids see if they can trust you first and they want to find out if you are a hypocrite or not.. they really watch adults to see if they live and do what they preach..if you don't...they have no respect for you..in the old days we would listen first.. they don't..they observe you first.BUT once you have their trust and they see you ain't putting up with no crap, you can usually get them interested in learning...I really see teaching a lot like fishing...if you don't have the right bait the fish ain't interested in you...same with kids today...you have to bait them into learning...some people say.."hey you shouldn't have to do that"..but I don't care about that..I just know that's how they are so I use it to my advantage.. I like it when they are learning and don't even realize it because they are so into what they are doing they are in the zone and having fun...now that is where the pay off comes in it for me... Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 --__--__-- Message: 2 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:28:32 -0400 From: zisheged@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Unruly Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I usually don't accept any kid under 12 or 13. I spend a lot of time on history, meditation and code of Hwa Rang Do. I also don't accept, except in unusual cases, kids that are not physically fit. At the outset, I am NOT a commercial school. More important to me is that my school is not a reform school or place for unruly brats. Tae Kwon Do is not for hockey moms looking to straighten out there over indulged kids. I do respect those masters that try and sometimes succeed? in straightening out some bad apples. I bow deeply to them. Personally, I took MooDukKwan seriously when I was a 16 year old kid in 1966. I expect that dedication from students. I know I'm rigid but there are lots of dojangs! Zeishe --__--__-- Message: 3 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:33:22 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] More bad apples Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brian writes: <> Brian: I think we DO understand each other perfectly... we just don't agree :) I do NOT mean the teenage juvenile delinquent, I mean the young kids who are so sadly lacking in social skills that they have become a problem child. The reason for this may be lack of parental control, or it may be due to a variety of other reasons. Whatever these reasons, I have neither the time nor the inclination to "fix" problem kids that are beyond my help. As I said, there are places out there who deal with this sort of behavioral stuff. I teach martial arts period. I do so with the kind of discipline that has helped many kids who needed the little extra push in the right direction. If I see a kid that IMHO is beyond what I am prepared to deal with, I send them along for the safety of the other kids in my school. BTW, age has no bearing on how bad an apple one can become, and I only need to point out the incident in the UK some time ago. In this case, we had a pair of very young kids who killed some other kid for no apparent reason (and much beyond the understanding of even the most skilled analysts). I am sure there are a lot more horror stories about 6-10 year olds. If I were a mechanic, and you came in for a brake job on a car that is otherwise unsafe, I would send you on your way too. IMHO again, there is no honor to fix brakes on a car that has steering problems to the point that it is a danger to turn loose on people. If it was in my power to do so, I would prevent such a car from being operated. Alas, all I can do is refuse to work on it, and perhaps give the owner the illusion that he is now driving a safe car because I fixed his brakes. If I see a kid that is similarly beyond help, I send him along for the same reason. If it were in my power to mandate his parents to take him to be evaluated, I would. Alas, again I have no such power. I can only hope that the parent will figure it out. Unfortunately, many parents won't bother, and many of these poor kids end up in our justice system. Do I feel bad about this... you bet I do. Do I take responsibility because I turned the kids away... not a chance. In fact, I would pat myself on the back for keeping my other kids safe and away from a potential threat to their health. I've been around long enough to know that kids will slip through the system, and I am not about to blame myself for that. Ultimately, that is the parents responsibility as Thomas suggested. Does this mean I do not teach discipline? Heck no, it only means I teach discipline to the kids who I am equipped to work with. With regards to having too many kids in a class. I think I have enough experience to figure out a safe ratio. A bad apple in a class of three or four can do something unexpected while I pay attention to any ONE of the other kids. The fact is that THIS IS the reason why I won't accept such a kid. I was born with TWO eyes, and fortunately for me they are both in the front of my ugly mug. A kid like that needs constant supervision; and, since I don't have eyes in the back of my head, I do the next safest thing, I send him along before accidents happen. Brian, I gotta give it to you man. You can sure sugar coat a slam. <> Yep, I am old... old enough to KNOW better than to take on more than I can handle. I spend my patience on correcting the correctable, and I leave those who need more than that to the good folks who have the resources to to a proper job. As I said earlier on in my reply... I think we DO understand one another, and I have no more "patience" to continue on trying to make you see it the way so many other folks on the DD apparently see it. Cheers, and thanks for respecting my accomplishments lol! Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: unruly Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Beach, When I was a child, my parents told me that I wouldn't understand until I had a family and children of my own. I thought it was a shameful cop-out. Now I have a family of my own and I understand much clearer. And now I fully understand that I can only wish I was half the hero my eight year thinks I am and only half as dumb as my sixteen year old thinks I am.... To paraphrase your post towards me, "I don't mean to make this personal but you've failed as an instructor." Gee Wally, that sure sounds kinda harsh to me. I started teaching in 1992 making me a rookie to many and an old timer to others. Certainly not perfect but I've seen my share of students come and go. With the example I gave, we literally tried everything we could think of. Even called my instructors to see if they had any suggestions. This child refused to conform and I made a decision that was best for the school and we cut that child and his non-parenting parents lose. This did a few things. It let our other students know that if you screw up like that kid - you're out. And it also taught that child boundaries. There is a very good possibility that child went to another school or sporting outlet and remembered "hey, if I screw up, I'll get thrown out like I did at Gordon Martial Arts." Or, maybe he won't grow up and mimic those two big people living with him that are supposed to be parents. At some point you cut a person lose. Same happens in anything I can think of. School, church, football team, boy scouts....even in prison. Apparently the fella gets himself sideways to what society accepts and ends up in prison. While in there, he makes some wrong decisions and ends up in solitaire. Such is life. Nowhere on our site does it say we'll take everyone. Some schools only teach adults, some only teach bad boys, some only do children - it's the school owner's decision to which market they wish to service. I'm not going to throw up a disclaimer to satisfy some faceless guy on the internet pounding away on his keyboard about how I should run a martial art school. Sorry to disappoint the non-school owner Brian Beach - you're certainly welcome to come to town and open up "we take all hellions" martial art school. As my folks told me about having a family, open a school and some things will just begin to make sense. Seems like you hounded me on hapkidoforums on a similar thread. Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:16:06 +0000 (UTC) From: mdealba@comcast.net To: the dojang Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: unruly Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well said Sir. I tend to agree. I have been teaching since about 1972, and have taught in just about every conceivable venue (ie: my own dojangs, my teachers dojangs, fitness centers, church, rec centers, etc), and my program has had certain constants and has also changed throughout the years. Everyone has their way with dealing with difficult if not down right badd apples. We all have different degrees of patience and skill in dealing with these folks. At the end of the day, we follow our heart, and do what we feel is right. Personally, I love teaching kids, but have not had a kids program in over 15 years. I still teach the little hellians at seminars and such, but my program is for adults. That's my perrogotive. I have the luxory of deciding who I accept and do not accept as a student. As such I take responsibiity for those that I keep. My two cents... With respect and brotherhood, Grand Master De Alba **CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE** This email communication and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the designated recipient named above. Distribution%2C reproduction or any other use of this transmission by any party other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the sender and delete all copies. ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Gordon To: the dojang Sent: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:21:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: unruly Mr Beach, When I was a child, my parents told me that I wouldn't understand until I had a family and children of my own. I thought it was a shameful cop-out. Now I have a family of my own and I understand much clearer. And now I fully understand that I can only wish I was half the hero my eight year thinks I am and only half as dumb as my sixteen year old thinks I am.... To paraphrase your post towards me, "I don't mean to make this personal but you've failed as an instructor." Gee Wally, that sure sounds kinda harsh to me. I started teaching in 1992 making me a rookie to many and an old timer to others. Certainly not perfect but I've seen my share of students come and go. With the example I gave, we literally tried everything we could think of. Even called my instructors to see if they had any suggestions. This child refused to conform and I made a decision that was best for the school and we cut that child and his non-parenting parents lose. This did a few things. It let our other students know that if you screw up like that kid - you're out. And it also taught that child boundaries. There is a very good possibility that child went to another school or sporting outlet and remembered "hey, if I screw up, I'll get thrown out like I did at Gordon Martial Arts." Or, maybe he won't grow up and mimic those two big people living with him that are supposed to be parents. At some point you cut a person lose. Same happens in anything I can think of. School, church, football team, boy scouts....even in prison. Apparently the fella gets himself sideways to what society accepts and ends up in prison. While in there, he makes some wrong decisions and ends up in solitaire. Such is life. Nowhere on our site does it say we'll take everyone. Some schools only teach adults, some only teach bad boys, some only do children - it's the school owner's decision to which market they wish to service. I'm not going to throw up a disclaimer to satisfy some faceless guy on the internet pounding away on his keyboard about how I should run a martial art school. Sorry to disappoint the non-school owner Brian Beach - you're certainly welcome to come to town and open up "we take all hellions" martial art school. As my folks told me about having a family, open a school and some things will just begin to make sense. Seems like you hounded me on hapkidoforums on a similar thread. Thomas Gordon Master's Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:58:10 +0000 (UTC) From: mdealba@comcast.net To: "Digest, Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] Special Knife Fighting - CQC Seminar in July Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Friends, We would like to extend a cordial invitation to all to join us in a special seminar in July. The seminar will be conducted by Grand Master Michael De Alba, founder of Modern Farang Mu Sul, and visiting from Portugal, Master Nelson Pinto, FMS Director for all of Europe and Brazil.The topics will focus on several close quarter combat tactics. Grand Master De Alba will cover Knife Fighting and Empty Hand Knife Defense, and Master Nelson Pinto will be teaching CQC Joint Locks, Takedowns, and Handgun Defenses. It is going to be a great training day. Master Pinto will be returning to Europe the following week, so we hope you won't miss this opportunity to train with us. The date will be on Saturday, July 18th, at Master Schleeters Martial Arts Academy in Hollister. More info is on the attached flyer. Hope to see you there. Respectfully, Thomas De Alba FMS-Asst. Secretary **CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE** This email communication and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the designated recipient named above. Distribution reproduction or any other use of this transmission by any party other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the sender and delete all copies. [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of KSN and Master Pinto SEMINAR flyer 001.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 7 From: James O'Connor To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Special Knife Fighting - CQC Seminar in July Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:43:30 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Where? On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:58 AM, mdealba@comcast.net wrote: > Dear Friends, > We would like to extend a cordial invitation to all to > join us in a special seminar in July. The seminar will be conducted by > Grand Master Michael De Alba, founder of Modern Farang Mu Sul, and > visiting from Portugal, Master Nelson Pinto, FMS Director for all of > Europe and Brazil.The topics will focus on several close quarter > combat > tactics. > > Grand Master De Alba will cover Knife Fighting and > Empty Hand Knife Defense, and Master Nelson Pinto will be teaching CQC > Joint Locks, Takedowns, and Handgun Defenses. It is going to be a > great > training day. > > Master Pinto will be returning to Europe the > following week, so we hope you won't miss this opportunity to train > with us. The date will be on Saturday, July 18th, at Master Schleeters > Martial Arts Academy in Hollister. More info is on the attached flyer. > Hope to see you there. > > Respectfully, > Thomas De Alba > FMS-Asst. Secretary > > **CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE** This email communication and any > attachments may contain confidential and privileged information for > the sole use of the designated recipient named above. Distribution > reproduction or any other use of this transmission by any party > other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the > intended recipient please contact the sender and delete all copies. > > [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a > name of KSN and Master Pinto SEMINAR flyer 001.jpg] > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Anthony" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: chiropractor Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:48:30 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Im also looking for a good chiropractor live in Wichita Ks 67209 Master Anthony Boyle US Central Taekwondo Assocation Usa Han Moo Kwan Assocation US Moo duk kwan Kansas Association www.boylestkd.com Cell-316-992-6639 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Howard" To: Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 6:29 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: chiropractor Fred posted: Does any of you hapkido or judo practitioners need regular visits to the chiropractor to maintain back health? ********** Fred: I am a chiropractor and I'd say that everyone needs regular visits to the chiropractor to maintain health, period. :) Especially those who engage in martial arts such as Hapkido & judo. Chiropractic is not simply for back health. Chiropractic adjustments effect the nervous system, therefore, they effect the entire body's health and function. Having a chiropractor examine your nervous system for interference, efficiency, and function is key to overall health and wellness. If you are looking for a good chiropractor who is not simply a band-aide for back pain, let me know where you live and I can find a good chiropractor who is a nervous system doctor for you. Be well! Julie H. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: The_Dojang Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:47:06 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Unruly apples Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Seems like the unruly kids and bad apples discussion has fully run its course. Time to move on or move it offline. Thanks. Ray Terry thedojang@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest