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From the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Mon Oct 12 17:15:45 2009 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n9CMFi615752 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:15:44 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5D3B281B4; Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:49:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:48:22 +0200 Message-ID: <20091013004822.1289.80553.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 16 #259 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2,500 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Hidden Camera Gone Wrong (aburrese@aol.com) 2. RE: Waivers... (J. Thomas Howard) 3. Re: Canadian Decision concerning liability of Dojang and sparring partners (Robert Burns) 4. beyond kiyap....lol (Jye nigma) 5. RE: beyond kiyap....lol (Christian Briggs) 6. Re: beyond kiyap....lol (Martin Von Cannon) 7. RE: beyond kiyap....lol (Christian Briggs) 8. RE: beyond kiyap....lol (Jye nigma) 9. 5 year old black belt (Jerry) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 18:08:20 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Hidden Camera Gone Wrong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Recently high kicks were discussed. Check out this video clip on my friend Wim's blog: http://www.wimsblog.com/2009/10/hidden-camera-gone-wrong/ I agree with Wim that the kick was not called for, but it was an effective kick. Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J. Thomas Howard" To: Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:42:03 -0500 Organization: Nebraska Hapkido Association Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Waivers... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thomas Gordon wrote: > As a martial art school owner, this is absolutely frightening. Please > note > this is in Canada: [snip] > Parents can't waive child's right to sue for negligence: Judgment Actually, this is completely unsurprising, and also true in the U.S., though not necessarily due to the same legal precedents. A waiver does not protect the school owner from the results of negligent actions. If you (meaning ANYONE) has ever believed such, you are wrong, and either need to talk to a lawyer about your school's waiver, or need to get a new lawyer to formulate a new waiver. Waivers do not absolve school owners of responsibility for actions that occur in their school. What they do, however, is make sure that the school owner has documented evidence that the students in their school (and the parents, if the student is a minor) are aware that the class is a martial arts class, which means accidents occur, and it isn't patty-cake or interpretive dance. All of the health issues that may occur in any strenuous activity may occur, plus the fact that students are interacting with each other in a combative fashion (under supervision) should be stressed in the waiver. Then, when normal actions in class occur, and someone gets popped in the nose, the parents, when they take you to court for ruining their little Lisa's perfect profile, lose their case---because that is a normal hazard of class, and their signature on the waiver shows that they were informed, and they chose to go ahead anyway. If, on the other hand, you decide to have 3-year-old students take full-power over-the-shoulder-throw falls from adult students, and some student ends up with brain damage, you are still liable---because you were negligent in your actions. They will win that court case---no matter what your waiver says. As a school owner, you are never unilaterally protected. On the other hand, school owners who aren't negligent are protected by waivers because accidents in class, as part of normal classes, occur---and your students and their parents should have (in writing) admitted that they understand such, and are choosing to commit to the class anyway. To anyone reading this: if what I said makes no sense, or your waiver attempts to make students/parents think that your waiver covers you in all cases---you need to change your waiver (or write one in the first place) so that you _are_ protected in normal class actions. There is nothing that can protect you in the case of negligence. Thomas Howard Nebraska Hapkido Association --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:49:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Burns To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Canadian Decision concerning liability of Dojang and sparring partners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fellow Martial Artists, including the Honorable Master Gordon:   First, I am a 72 year old Second Dan in Tae Kwondo (in grade over 6 years) who assists in teaching younger and older students here in Crystal River, FL as well as an assistant instructor in "Chen-Style" Taiji Quan for over 1 year (getting older doesn't mean quitting learning about martial arts);  I am also a practicing attorney in Indiana since 1979, and a past Editor of Indiana Law Review.  As such, I was honored in July 2008 in Detroit by being appointed "At Large Legal Counsel to the Florida Martial Arts Commission" concerning USAT matters.  The issue presented by the "link" from the Canadian "trial" court is a bit misleading and should not overly concern (at least at this stage) owners/operators of schools around the USA.  The apparent thrust of B.C. Justice Peter Willcock's "decision" which merely allows the suit to go forward appears to be a "premise" or "threshold" determination that broadly paints an impossible picture allowing the Plaintiff to move forward toward trial.  However, not being a legal scholar of Canadian law, I can only say what most American Trial courts should say, and that is: To tell the Defense attorney to seek an opinion by the State's highest Court as to the interpretation of the law relied upon by the Plaintiff's attorney, and whether, under the facts as "alleged" in the written complaint (because at this stage, no "admissible" facts other than the signed contract would have been before the court to consider ... only allegations of negligence on the part of the school and the Plaintiff's opponent).  For example: Indiana, several years ago, determined (Indiana Supreme Court) that the Plaintiff could not waive his/her right to seek damages where the injury was caused by the negligence of the schools' owners concerning dangers which the injured party could or did not have notice (or hidden dangers which where not perceived, acknowledged or accepted, e.g., walking into a darkened room without knowing or appreciating that there were rotten boards in the floor and the person walked into the room, fell through the floor and was injured).  Therefore, if the students have been properly trained, the school properly kept up, no hidden or unknown dangers, and a properly prepared "Waiver" (reviewed by a knowledgeable attorney who regularly practices in the field of "personal injury") I see no need to be overly concerned with the Canadian court's determination.  The time to become concerned is when or if the matter ever gets to the highest Court in Canada for a review of the whole case (including facts as proved at trial) as it relates to the Act. Yours in Martial Arts Bob Burns, 2nd Dan Crystal River, FLThe Bobster Today's Topics:   1. Parental signed Hold Harmless (Thomas Gordon) Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: "Thomas Gordon" Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:14:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Parental signed Hold Harmless Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As a martial art school owner, this is absolutely frightening.  Please note this is in Canada: Thomas Gordon Masters' Seminars April 16-18, 2010 www.GordonMartialArts.com/april __________________ http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Parents+waive+child+right+negligence+Judgme nt/2091198/story.html Parents can't waive child's right to sue for negligence: Judgment By Katie Mercer, The ProvinceOctober 9, 2009 Parents have no right to waive their children's right to sue, according to a B.C. Supreme Court decision this week. Victor Wong was 12 years old when his mother signed a liability waiver to enroll him in a Hapkido school, a Korean martial art. Wong was 16 when he was allegedly violently thrown to the ground during a sparring match. At 20, he still suffers from his injuries. Wong is suing Michael Lok, the owner of Lok's Martial Arts Centre in Richmond, and his sparring partner for negligence. He argues that Lok failed to provide preventative measures to screen participants, instruct them, require protective gear and supervise matches. However, Lok argues that the claim should be dismissed as Wong's mother signed a waiver protecting him from litigation. B.C. Justice Peter Willcock disagreed, ruling that, under the Infants Act of B.C., a parent can not waive their child's rights to sue for negligence. "The Act does not permit a parent or guardian to bind an infant to an agreement waiving the infant's right to bring an action in damages in tort," Willcock found in his decision. The case is scheduled to proceed in November. -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:47:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net what do you all feel about screaming like this?   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZXtnSFQjbk   Jye --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:16:25 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bet her throat was sore. -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:47 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol what do you all feel about screaming like this?   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZXtnSFQjbk   Jye _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource. Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:39:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol From: Martin Von Cannon To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wow! I am not a fan of forms like that. I don't want to take away from the ability to do them, as that is tremendous. However, lack of power in technique and poor technique for sake of showmanship does not impress me. As for her yelling and screaming, for that is what it is, also, not a fan. I have always been taught that a kihap was a loud sound but under control to coincide with the force of your technique. She had no force and was there fore just yelling like a 5 year old that was hurt on a playground. -- - Martin Von Cannon mvoncannon [at] gmail.com On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:47 AM, Jye nigma wrote: > what do you all feel about screaming like this? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZXtnSFQjbk > > Jye > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource. > Standard disclaimers apply. > > Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States > License. > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Christian Briggs" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:22:46 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was taught that kihaps were supposed to come from your center (belly). I was specifically taught that they don’t come from the throat. Obviously these types of "forms" are not judging as to the strength of the technique, and definitely not the strength of the kihap. I have heard these same kihaps at sparring competitions as well. But it seems to follow the hit, not accompany it. Its almost like they are yelling at the judge..."look I just scored a point" However, I wish I could move like that. It would be nice. -chris -----Original Message----- From: Martin Von Cannon [mailto:mvoncannon@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 9:40 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol Wow! I am not a fan of forms like that. I don't want to take away from the ability to do them, as that is tremendous. However, lack of power in technique and poor technique for sake of showmanship does not impress me. As for her yelling and screaming, for that is what it is, also, not a fan. I have always been taught that a kihap was a loud sound but under control to coincide with the force of your technique. She had no force and was there fore just yelling like a 5 year old that was hurt on a playground. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:27:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well stated.   Jye --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Christian Briggs wrote: From: Christian Briggs Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 1:22 PM I was taught that kihaps were supposed to come from your center (belly).  I was specifically taught that they don’t come from the throat.  Obviously these types of "forms" are not judging as to the strength of the technique, and definitely not the strength of the kihap.  I have heard these same kihaps at sparring competitions as well.  But it seems to follow the hit, not accompany it.  Its almost like they are yelling at the judge..."look I just scored a point" However, I wish I could move like that.  It would be nice. -chris -----Original Message----- From: Martin Von Cannon [mailto:mvoncannon@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 9:40 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] beyond kiyap....lol Wow! I am not a fan of forms like that.  I don't want to take away from the ability to do them, as that is tremendous.  However, lack of power in technique and poor technique for sake of showmanship does not impress me. As for her yelling and screaming, for that is what it is, also, not a fan. I have always been taught that a kihap was a loud sound but under control to coincide with the force of your technique.  She had no force and was there fore just yelling like a 5 year old that was hurt on a playground. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2,500 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource. Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 17:53:26 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jerry Subject: [The_Dojang] 5 year old black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Was wondering what folks thought of this...there's both a print article and video. http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/10/08/karate.black.belt.five/index.html?eref=rss_topstories Jerry -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin It's also true that those who would give up privacy for security are likely to end up with neither. It's not the years in your life that count, but the life in your years" "Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional" "Without continual growth and progress, such words as improvement, achievement and success have no meaning." - Benjamin Franklin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest